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Is it time for the Ivy league to offer football scholarships?


Replies to: Is it time for the Ivy league to offer football scholarships?

  • twoinanddonetwoinanddone Registered User Posts: 19,525 Senior Member
    No school has to offer scholarships, but Stanford (Duke, Northwestern, ND) would be at a disadvantage if no athletic scholarships were offered because other schools in the conference do offer them.

    But I don't think the Ivies want to be Stanford or ND in sports. They want to be competitive on their own terms (which they have set with the AI and other restrictions). Are they going to build big stadiums like ND and Michigan? Are they going to add marching bands and get big money TV contracts?
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    edited May 2017
    @twoinanddone I understand what you are saying. The difference is they don't have to be like Stanford etal...but can at least improve the quality of the football team AND keep academic integrity. Keep the AI but add 15-20 football scholarships. Why not put the best product available on the field. If you're going to have a football team, pay coaches good money, have great facilities, pay for transportation, team meals and on and on then why not roll out a great product? Do you think the coaches at these schools wouldn't want that? There is a way to do both without sacrificing academics. It doesn't have to be an either or situation.
  • monydadmonydad Registered User Posts: 7,744 Senior Member
    edited May 2017
    "Why not put the best product available .."
    The "product they care about is education. Sports, and music, and clubs, etc, is something their students partake in while pursuing their primary goal of an education.

    Their "product" is just fine so long as the others they are competing with are playing under the same rules and constraints. Some of the most exciting sporting events I've ever been to were my daughter's grade- school team soccer matches. Their team would not be mistaken for Manchester United, but neither were the other teams they played. Some of their games were simply thrilling.

    Who cares what the coaches want, frankly.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    @monydad Seriously? Who cares? Everybody involved with the program and a good deal of alumni. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. KEEP THE AI to maintain academic integrity...REPEAT KEEP THE AI...only offer 15-20 football scholarships to keep those who don't meet FA qualifications and would have to pay $15-20k vs free rides at Div 1 academic schools or Patriot league teams. Don't drop the academic integrity one bit(see Stanford) but improve the quality of play(even if it's only in the league). Put the best product on the field possible..in everything...that's what separates the best from very good to good to poor. Ivy should want the best for everything they do.
  • monydadmonydad Registered User Posts: 7,744 Senior Member
    edited May 2017
    "Who cares? Everybody involved with the program and a good deal of alumni."

    I'm an alumnus and I don't care. I think most alumni at my university would regard it as a sort of sell-out.
    If they were all that enamored with pre-professional sports they wouldn't have gone there.

    They *do* enjoy it when a team does well. But that joy would be muted if they felt the team was "bought and paid for". I think.

    The student athletes associated with the program who are crowded out by the purchased players probably wouldn't dig it too much either.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    If they keep the AI what changes? Top students who are considering Stanford, Duke, Ivy and Patriot are put in a position of eliminating the Ivy due to finances...especially the middle class(most of America). Since the Ivy established need blind FA to help certain families, why wouldn't they do the same for otherwise qualified student athletes who have to choose $15-20 Ivy vs free ride other top schools?
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    There are no other programs that generate the interest that football does. Improving the quality can only increase interest. Btw all of these schools highly promote(to prospective athletes) the number of graduates who are now in the pros.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    Seeing an amazing athlete in person is something to behold. Going out to see an Andrew Luck at an Ivy game would absolutely fill the seats. As harsh as it is to say the reality is despite being competitive and close games, women's basketball doesn't draw because of the talent level. Put a superior talent on the field and attendance and interest grows in everything. Who doesn't want to see/watch excellence in anything?
  • monydadmonydad Registered User Posts: 7,744 Senior Member
    Maybe then they should cut out these half way measures and just pay Andrew Luck to attend.
    Or, better yet, the entire New England Patriots team.

    And you know what, almost nobody attends student musical performances on campus.
    What if they gave full-paid compensation to people like Lenny Kravitz, or whoever, to "attend".
    I bet attendance at musical performances would really get pumped up then. Concert revenue also.
    The students who used to give musical performances won't get to do them anymore, but the heck with them.

    Theater too. Right now there are student performances that do get some attendance. But not like if they bought the cast of "Hamilton" to perform ("attend") instead. That would pump up attendance, for sure.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    edited May 2017
    Um Andrew Luck the Valedictorian? Who would want that guy on their campus/team lol? You seem to have a problem understanding for an Ivy grad. Nothing changes...the AI stays put to weed out unqualified students academically. You offer scholarships to QUALIFIED student/athletes who have to choose between having to pay vs free rides at Stanford, Duke, Patriot. Why miss out on top talent for no good reason? And you're making my point...football is king on campus not theater or musical performances. However if you did get a top performer it would increase in interest thus drawing more talented students academically and in their area of expertise.
  • 3girls3cats3girls3cats Registered User Posts: 1,906 Senior Member
    Simply put the mission of these schools is different from the mission at the schools that offer athletic scholarships.

  • twoinanddonetwoinanddone Registered User Posts: 19,525 Senior Member
    Do you think the coaches at these schools wouldn't want that?

    Hasn't the Harvard coach been there like 25 years? I don't think he's troubled by not having scholarships.

    You keep saying the schools could just offer 15 football scholarships. They'd then have to follow the 'preferred walk on' recruiting rules, and they might have to restrict FA to all football players. Schools that give scholarships can't just give FA to half the team (financially needy) and scholarships to the rich kids. ND and Stanford give out the 85 football scholarships, and the other 30-35 get nothing. Nothing. As it is now, Harvard could have every single player on full scholarship if the school found them to have need.

    And it's a slippery slope. Patriot league started with 15 football scholarships, but now schools can offer up to 60:
    Patriot League football was non-scholarship until the league presidents voted to approve football scholarships starting with the 2013 recruiting class. Each school will be allowed no more than the equivalent of 15 scholarships to incoming football players. Once the transition to scholarship football is complete in the 2016 season, the total number of scholarship equivalents cannot exceed 60 in any season, three short of the NCAA FCS maximum.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    @3girls3cats Theirs is no different than Stanford, Duke, ND etc..top academic schools. The difference is good football programs. Their offer both FA and scholarships.

    @twoinanddone Not true. You are mis-reading the scholarships. You can't exceed 60(spread out over years). Another words you can choose not to give any scholarships in 1 year giving you 30 for the next. Almost all schools spread out the 15 year to year. Their model would be that of the Patriot league with the AI staying put.
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    edited May 2017
    It also matters to the administration and school. Schools are starting to come around:

    "“They’re targeting top-100 guys,” Telep, the ESPN.com recruiting analyst, says of the caliber of players Harvard now tries to bring in. “They are the only ones in the Ivy League operating with this model. They’re selling Tommy as a players’ coach and Harvard as Harvard. They’ve had no fear in challenging or competing for [the kind of] player Harvard has never had before.”
    ... The new guidelines, which apply to all students, amount to de facto scholarships for some athletes. And the talent has followed. ESPN ranked two freshmen on this year’s team, Kenyatta Smith and Wesley Saunders, among the top 25 prospects in California. They were reportedly recruited by the likes of Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Stanford, and Southern California. Siyani Chambers, the second-rated player in the state of Minnesota, has committed to Harvard for next season, as has Mike Hall, one of the top prospects in Georgia.
    “Why should we settle for less?” Amaker says. “We feel there are enough of those kids out there who are talented and bright.”
  • moscottmoscott Registered User Posts: 962 Member
    To quote @Ohiodad51

    "No offense to anyone, but current Patriot League rules mandate that all grant aid counts against the 60 limit. It was one of the ways the schools in favor of going scholarship convinced the hold outs that the aid given to football players would be capped, and it wouldn't turn into a situation like the NEC, where the scholarship limits are effectively meaningless at some schools. "
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