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Time to commit?

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Replies to: Time to commit?

  • fauvefauve 3500 replies26 threads Senior Member
    Congrats Monster! You are in a wonderful position, don't be afraid to say yes and be done with it. You may feel alone and curious if it is all real, concrete and legit, but yes, you've got the goods and can enjoy the delightful benefits of your hard work and success in both your academics and athletics. Hooray!

    (& Great tactical advice above from Sherpa.)
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  • martyhmartyh 46 replies1 threads Junior Member
    For those working through the baseball recruiting process I would not recommend you follow what Cardinal16 is saying. It is correct that there may not be a Scout or Rivals noting every detail like football, but after going through the process (baseball) with my son I found it overly amazing how many baseball coaches’ paths had crossed during their respective careers and how much they continue to communicate with each other following their time together. In my opinion they have their own ‘.com’ network so I think the chances of a coach finding out someone is still talking will be exposed. You better have a pretty good line of BS; even if you can throw 90-95 consistently and have a nasty slider with your left arm……. Most coaches will be moving on to the next kid on their list……
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  • Cardinal16Cardinal16 124 replies18 threads Junior Member
    I don't get it, it seems not to smart to simply stop talking because you have committed. I could care less if coaches knew I was still talking. Until you sign something you get admission, its open game. If the number 1 recruit in the nation wants to commit to a full class at your position, youre gone. I like protecting myself, but that's just me.

    And if coaches don't honor their offer because you're talking to other schools that's a lot different than football I guess. Once you offer, you don't pull your offer unless the class if full at your position.
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  • riverrunnerriverrunner 2663 replies52 threads Senior Member
    I agree with martyh on this one. It's perfectly fine to tell the coach at your number one choice that they are, indeed, the number one choice, but that until the LL is received, the student plans to continue receiving calls from other coaches, and may even go on OVs if the LL isn't in hand, and the student is getting nervous.

    He can also tell the #2-#5 that he is still looking at all options. If pressed, he will probably have to say they aren't #1, since those schools may ask if he is willing to accept a LL, LOI, etc. He would have to say he's waiting to hear on his number one choice, but in the event that doesn't come through, he will be re-evaluating all other top choices.

    The student DOESN'T have to tell #2-#5 where they rank. I agree, coaches talk to each other and current players talk to prospects who then talk to coaches.

    Assume there's an active rumor mill, be honest, but don't show all your cards.
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  • mayhewmayhew 636 replies7 threads Member
    riverrunner ^^^ I think that is excellent advice, and a good/wise game plan.
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  • fogfogfogfog 3868 replies188 threads Senior Member
    ok
    in regards to a student who has gotten a green light from admissions on a pre-read (full transcript, sr scheudle, test scores etc--only essays and letters left)

    so am I understanding

    student and coach get likely letter from AdCom and then student hands over full app to coach to be taken to Adcom....

    ?

    What happens if coach presses for a commit at the OV?
    Can student ask for the likely to be given so student can submit full app?
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  • Runners2Runners2 301 replies7 threads Member
    fogfog - in our experience, the complete application needed to be submitted before the admissions office would provide a likely letter - they needed to be able to review the complete application.

    In response to the 2nd portion of your question, coaches understand that athletes are looking at a number of schools, just as coaches are looking at a number of athletes. If a coach is pressuring your athlete for a decision, I would ask what he thinks is the likelihood of your athlete losing that position if he/she is not able to commit right now. When we asked that question, we felt like we got pretty honest responses that ranged from, "you've probably got some time left to make that decision" to "I'm looking at 5 athletes for this spot and need to fill out my roster."

    Good luck negotiating this process!
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  • sherpasherpa 4731 replies93 threads Senior Member
    ^Runners2 is right; the entire app must be in for a LL to be issued. I think that the Joint Statement on Common Ivy Group Admissions Procedures is posted on all the Ivy school websites. From the Princeton site:
    http://www.princeton.edu/admission/pdfs/0708_ivy.pdf

    The entire document should be read by any Ivy aspiring student-athlete, but a couple of sections warrant emphasis.
    Within each institution’s overall admissions process, from October 1 through March 15 an admission office may issue probabilistic communications, in writing, to applicants who are recruited student athletes. (Such probabilistic communications given by coaches, whether orally or in writing, do not constitute binding institutional commitments.) An applicant who receives one or more such written communications and who has made a decision to matriculate at one institution is encouraged (but not required) to notify all other
    institutions, and to withdraw all other applications, as promptly as possible.
    Note that the above section contemplates applicants receiving multiple LLs.
    An institution may send a “likely” probabilistic communication letter to a candidate (whether or not the applicant is a recruited student-athlete) only if the applicant has submitted all of the materials which the institution requires in order to make an admissions decision.
    As Runners2 noted, the full app must be in before a LL can be issued.
    No information referring to the admission or financial aid status of an applicant to an Ivy institution may be considered official unless it is received directly from that institution’s admission or financial aid office.
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  • wilberry228wilberry228 377 replies19 threads Member
    Sherpa, that is good info, thanks for posting the excerpts and the link.

    I'm foggy on the timelines for applying, OVs, LLs, LOIs, etc. My daughter is only looking at one ivy and it's probably the reach of the group both academically and athletically. But she may have a good chance, she is not out of range.

    By filling in the complete ivy application, she doesn't preclude herself from the D1 schools, does she? And does a complete app have to be in at every school where she might get a LOI also?

    Right now I'm still trying to light the fire for her to start the common app! But she's never home, between practices and work, and now she is away this week at a camp. And she has AP packets to complete too. It's going to be a crazy hectic fall, I think.
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  • stemitstemit 544 replies31 threads Member
    Likely letters and National Letters of intent have vague similarities and are not to be confused. A “likely letter” is the Ivy League method of insuring that athletes are assured (absent some amazing disaster like a felony) of admission into the university. The LL’s allow the Ivy’s to compete with all universities in recruiting athletes. The LL is an Ivy League only process.

    The LL is given by admissions ONLY upon the submission of a completed application by the athlete. (Note: the LL has no interaction with financial aid; this may or may not be an issue with a family.) The LL is NOT binding upon the student (i.e., it is not a contract). But, for the overwhelming number of athletes it is the equivalent of a contract – in other words, you get one and you’re done with the recruiting process – you have committed!
    A coach has only a limited number of LL’s that he/she can seek. So in reality, while a recruit can seek more than one LL, the coach will wait until the student commits (non binding) before seeking the LL.

    There is a relationship between an “Official Visit” and a Likely Letter – but the strength of that relationship varies and is variable. Neither is a prerequisite of the other. Some coaches will not even consider giving an offer (and with that eventually a LL) without first having the recruit visit the school (and the players) (which can be either an OV or an unofficial visit). On the other hand, other coaches are prepared to give an offer (which is always contingent upon admissions having the final say) without a visit. (Side note: for baseball, many D1 schools use their OV’s to bring in players in a group AFTER the players have been accepted and signed LOI’s.)

    OV’s can occur only after the student has begun their senior year (and after the university semester has begun). Unofficial visits can occur anytime. A school has a limited number of OV’s and, therefore, if your S/D has been offered an OV he/she is using a precious spot. HOWEVER, an OV does not mean you will get an offer (much less get admitted) – but it is a good sign (actually a very good sign). If you get an invitation for an OV it will ALWAYS be after the coach/someone has determined that you are at least close to (if not above) admission guidelines. (In other words a coach will not give an OV invite without seeing your academic records.)

    National Letters of Intent are contracts signed by a player with a school. The LOI is a binding contract and can be rescinded only in certain circumstances (and generally with a lot of hassle). LOI’s are signed only in certain periods set forth by the NCAA (LL’s can be given anytime in the admission application process). Before the LOI is signed, the player has only a non-binding agreement with the school (mutually non-binding); but the overwhelming majority of players and schools stick to that non-binding agreement (though there are horror stories on both sides to the contrary). To sign an LOI, a completed admissions application is not needed – but if the player does not meet either NCAA or the school’s admissions requirement, it can be nullified. (To get the LL as stated above, the application must be completed.)

    Your D is not precluded upon getting an LL from pursuing a LOI from another D1 school (but if she got an LOI from one school she is precluded from signing an LOI at another school). But, in getting the LL make sure the coach knows she is not committing to that IVY so that everyone understands where everyone stands – that may or may not make a difference to the coach!

    So, in summarizing this novel, applications can be submitted wherever the university opens its application process; LL process begins no earlier than October 1 (but getting a completed app takes some time (it includes letters of rec, all standardized tests, transcripts and the dreaded essays – both common app and school specific). Signing an LOI does not require a completed app (the coach will tell you how much of an app needs to be completed). OV’s can occur no earlier than the start of both the player’s senior year and the schools semester. LOI dates are set by the NCAA; the LL dates are from October 1 until the school says it ends – the end of their app process.) Outside of the IVY’s, I know of students who got into very good academic schools as late as a week before the semester began – the school needed left-handed pitching! (Side note: beware of the LOI financial aid trap —before signing the LOI understand EXACTLY the financial aid situation.) (Last side note: the LOI is only a single year contract; it needs to be renewed each year. This means that your S/D is only assured of being on the team for a single year at a time.)

    Sorry about the length, I got on a roll. All corrections/modifications/qualifications are welcome!
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  • sherpasherpa 4731 replies93 threads Senior Member
    ^excellent summary, stemit. I'll offer one minor correction.
    the LL dates are from October 1 until the school says it ends – the end of their app process.
    Officially October 1 - March 15
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  • wilberry228wilberry228 377 replies19 threads Member
    Yes, Stemit, thanks!

    I understand the LOI pretty well but that's what I meant by precluded - I guess more morally than legally. So what I understand from this is that it depends on the school/sport/coach. She has three D1 OVs lined up and the ivy coach has called her a couple of times, with promise to call again. I know this coach also calls many, many others, don't know if any OVs are offered or accepted yet. She has been told by the coach that she could get in, but she also had other coaches tell her that and never call again :-) And I do understand that words are just words, especially this early in the process.

    Of course, he hasn't even offered her a visit yet and she gave him all her info weeks ago. But we don't know his timeline or anything. We'll see what happens next week. Since she isn't talking to any of the other ivies at this point (one is one of the coaches who called once and asked for everything and didn't call again!) maybe it's going to be a moot point, if she doesn't get the invite for the OV. I would bet that she's one who will get it perhaps if some others decline, but I could be wrong about that too.

    I'm sure I'll refer back to this post several more times throughout the coming weeks. I guess at minimum she should find out what the application requirements are at this particular school.

    As for financial aid, is it odd to call a financial aid office and ask them what their policies are as far as determining need? I'm sure the ivies go beyond what is defined by FAFSA. At least I hope so!
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  • stemitstemit 544 replies31 threads Member
    Do not be shy about finding out about financial aid! I believe that need-based aid CANNOT be combined with an athletic scholarship. On the other hand, academic aid can be combined with an athletic scholarship. (Someone please correct me if my recollection is wrong.)

    If the athletic scholarship your S/D can get is small (and most scholarships can be small [like "books only" small]) that can leave a huge amount unfunded by the school! (Also, even if the scholarship is large, it is only guaranteed for a year. Some schools have policies about renewals; some don't. Ask the coach and accept nothing less than a clear concise response.)

    As for words the coach may say, make sure you really understand the meaning. As an example of my layperson understanding v. coachspeak is the term "full ride." So, a coach who offers a "full ride scholarship" to a player has me thinking about a free education! But, alas, a “full ride” does not mean 100% COA (for all those who have heard parents proudly say their S/D is getting a “full ride”). In coach-speak a “full ride” refers to tuition, fees and books – it does not include room and board. (That is why at some state schools 27 members of the baseball team are getting “full rides” on 11.7 scholarships.)

    [In baseball, a D1 school can fund up to 11.7 scholly’s (using a school’s Cost of Attendance [COA] as the amount times 11.7) and slice each like salami down to 25%, subject to a max of 27 players receiving baseball scholly’s. (Some sports are not allowed to slice scholly’s like salami.) So, assume a private school whose COA is 50k (it is always more when you get down to it), 25% still leaves a 38k shortfall. (And I believe that the shortfall cannot be made up by need-based money.) In sports which are allowed to slice scholly’s like a deli, a 100% COA scholly is almost as rare as a unicorn!]

    So, while it is a tremendous honor to the athlete to even be offered an athletic scholarship, that offer is merely another fork in the road to choosing a school.

    Do not hesitate to insist on answers!

    In the IVY's all aid is need based -- but the huge difference with the IVY's when compared with other schools is the amount of aid that a middle class family receives (especially ones who have really studied the ways that the IVY school calculates aid). Now, make no mistake, if you are middle class you still are expected to cutback your lifestyle (and maybe get another job or two) to pay the rest of the bill over the aid the school gives, but for our children . . . :)
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  • wilberry228wilberry228 377 replies19 threads Member
    Thanks again stemit!

    The ivy formula eludes me. If it comes down to her getting a visit, then we will have to broach the subject. She has no idea which school is for her just yet, this seems to have all happened very quickly although obviously it did not! The problem is that she likes them all, and wants to go to whichever one she just got off the phone with the coach of ... !

    Another thing I am wondering about. We pay private school tuition for our other child. Is this ever counted in the financial aid formula?
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  • mayhewmayhew 636 replies7 threads Member
    wilberry228: Regarding private school tuition for younger children being considered for financial aid, I have been told that no, it is not a consideration. This is because that younger child could be in a public/non-fee paying school - so private education is a choice that does not affect financial aid one way or another. I had asked this of our GC just out of curiosity as all our children are in private school, along with prep schools that have the same tuition as a top private college - I thought that might possibly be taken into consideration, but apparently, the answer is no. The college is not swayed one way or the other, unless you have multiple children in college. Not the best news - sorry!
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  • wilberry228wilberry228 377 replies19 threads Member
    thanks mayhew,

    I would have thought that and understand of course that it is a choice to send to a private school; although in our case we felt it was urgent in order to keep our son on the right track, the public middle school was chaotic at best!

    I only thought to ask this because once when I was at work, someone had left by the fax machine a form that they had sent to a local college, and it seemed to be a form to request credit for Catholic school tuition paid. I can't remember which school it was. Maybe the Jesuit-run schools do that if it's a Catholic school? Some schools must take it into consideration, I'm just wondering who they are and if they are few and far between??
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  • fogfogfogfog 3868 replies188 threads Senior Member
    ^^

    I am going to hazard a guess that a Jesuit University "may" take into account if you are paying tuition to a Catholic or in particular - Jesuit run private high school....since it would be a "feeder" system so to speak
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  • fogfogfogfog 3868 replies188 threads Senior Member
    Monster..
    what did you decide to do?
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  • monstor344monstor344 2464 replies38 threads Senior Member
    I decided to pull the trigger and go for it. Made the call to announce my commitment, coaches said congrats and gave me the steps to move onto the likely letter. Alas, even as I was writing this thread and trying to be impartial about it all I simply could not; I really feel like this is the place for me.
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  • mayhewmayhew 636 replies7 threads Member
    congratulations monstor344!! How great to have a decision made! Just out of curiousity, will you go on other OVs while you wait for the LL to arrive? Or are you choosing to remove yourself from the OV process?

    Again, great news for you!!
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