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Time to commit?


Replies to: Time to commit?

  • sherpasherpa Registered User Posts: 4,705 Senior Member
    ^ I agree. That's basically what DS did. His first choice was Princeton, which has no ED, so is very tuned in to the LL process, because without assurances of LLs, many recruits would opt for ED schools to be "one and done" rather than wait for April. DS and P coach mutually committed in August and scheduled an OV for October. DS submitted admission application in September, but coach seemed to be in no rush to push for an early LL.

    DS wanted LL in hand (or LL denial, so he could move on) well before Stanford and Yale SCEA deadlines, so that if LL request was denied he'd have time to submit a SCEA app to S or Y. Turned out that coach needed to do a write-up on each LL candidate and submit his letter to admission in order to trigger the LL approval process. Coach liked to submit his support letters in batches, and we figured out, after the fact, that coach was holding off on submitting DS's support letter in order to submit it with a group that might have included some more academically marginal recruits. Essentially, we surmised, he was using DS as a "booster" for some more marginal candidates.

    Mid-October DS explained the importance of getting his LL before the S and Y SCEA deadlines to P coach; coach got the message that without LL in hand, DS might look elsewhere. Coach then submitted support letter to admissions right away. DS enjoyed his OV, it confirmed to him that P was the correct choice, and two days after returning from OV he got a congratulatory call from admissions telling him LL was on its way. LL followed a day or two later.

    I think I wrote that too fast. I hope it made sense.

    So, Monstor, I’d advise you to push for the LL at 1st choice school but keep your other options open until you have LL in hand. And remember, the LL isn’t binding on the student. If you have a major change of heart you could still apply elsewhere RD.

    I wouldn’t advise it, but you could.
  • mayhewmayhew Registered User Posts: 643 Member
    ^^Sherpa, That made perfect sense, no matter your typing speed!

    Thank you so much for sharing your son's experience. The timing of the LL clearly is a major component of the whole experience. It is good that your son talked to the coach about the need for speed regarding this process, certainly after 1st October! I didn't know that admissions would ever call with good news regarding LL - that is a nice way to reduce the stress for at least a few days while you are haunting the mailbox!
  • 3xboys3xboys Registered User Posts: 319 Member
    ^^Our S's school faxed the letter as soon as the Adcom meeting was over!
  • mayhewmayhew Registered User Posts: 643 Member
    3xboys ^^^ even better! It would be a huge relief to actually be holding tangible evidence of what was coming in the mail - and to celebrate the end of this journey!
  • riverrunnerriverrunner Registered User Posts: 2,715 Senior Member
    Our D's coach emailed a scan of the LL. I made a paper copy, drove like a mad woman down to the school and interrupted my D in class to give it to her in the hall. Lots of tears and smiles. I still can't believe the stress, anxiety, and ultimately triumph when this was over. Hang in there all.

    sherpa, our thought process was identical to yours. We were dealing with an EDish final choice, but the conversation with the coach about timing was basically the same as yours. D didn't want to miss other opportunities that had ED, in case she wasn't really a match for her first choice. It all turned out fine. Really, two years later, MUCH better than fine :)
  • fauvefauve Registered User Posts: 3,515 Senior Member
    Congrats Monster! You are in a wonderful position, don't be afraid to say yes and be done with it. You may feel alone and curious if it is all real, concrete and legit, but yes, you've got the goods and can enjoy the delightful benefits of your hard work and success in both your academics and athletics. Hooray!

    (& Great tactical advice above from Sherpa.)
  • martyhmartyh Registered User Posts: 47 Junior Member
    For those working through the baseball recruiting process I would not recommend you follow what Cardinal16 is saying. It is correct that there may not be a Scout or Rivals noting every detail like football, but after going through the process (baseball) with my son I found it overly amazing how many baseball coaches’ paths had crossed during their respective careers and how much they continue to communicate with each other following their time together. In my opinion they have their own ‘.com’ network so I think the chances of a coach finding out someone is still talking will be exposed. You better have a pretty good line of BS; even if you can throw 90-95 consistently and have a nasty slider with your left arm……. Most coaches will be moving on to the next kid on their list……
  • Cardinal16Cardinal16 Registered User Posts: 142 Junior Member
    I don't get it, it seems not to smart to simply stop talking because you have committed. I could care less if coaches knew I was still talking. Until you sign something you get admission, its open game. If the number 1 recruit in the nation wants to commit to a full class at your position, youre gone. I like protecting myself, but that's just me.

    And if coaches don't honor their offer because you're talking to other schools that's a lot different than football I guess. Once you offer, you don't pull your offer unless the class if full at your position.
  • riverrunnerriverrunner Registered User Posts: 2,715 Senior Member
    I agree with martyh on this one. It's perfectly fine to tell the coach at your number one choice that they are, indeed, the number one choice, but that until the LL is received, the student plans to continue receiving calls from other coaches, and may even go on OVs if the LL isn't in hand, and the student is getting nervous.

    He can also tell the #2-#5 that he is still looking at all options. If pressed, he will probably have to say they aren't #1, since those schools may ask if he is willing to accept a LL, LOI, etc. He would have to say he's waiting to hear on his number one choice, but in the event that doesn't come through, he will be re-evaluating all other top choices.

    The student DOESN'T have to tell #2-#5 where they rank. I agree, coaches talk to each other and current players talk to prospects who then talk to coaches.

    Assume there's an active rumor mill, be honest, but don't show all your cards.
  • mayhewmayhew Registered User Posts: 643 Member
    riverrunner ^^^ I think that is excellent advice, and a good/wise game plan.
  • fogfogfogfog Registered User Posts: 4,056 Senior Member
    in regards to a student who has gotten a green light from admissions on a pre-read (full transcript, sr scheudle, test scores etc--only essays and letters left)

    so am I understanding

    student and coach get likely letter from AdCom and then student hands over full app to coach to be taken to Adcom....


    What happens if coach presses for a commit at the OV?
    Can student ask for the likely to be given so student can submit full app?
  • Runners2Runners2 Registered User Posts: 308 Member
    fogfog - in our experience, the complete application needed to be submitted before the admissions office would provide a likely letter - they needed to be able to review the complete application.

    In response to the 2nd portion of your question, coaches understand that athletes are looking at a number of schools, just as coaches are looking at a number of athletes. If a coach is pressuring your athlete for a decision, I would ask what he thinks is the likelihood of your athlete losing that position if he/she is not able to commit right now. When we asked that question, we felt like we got pretty honest responses that ranged from, "you've probably got some time left to make that decision" to "I'm looking at 5 athletes for this spot and need to fill out my roster."

    Good luck negotiating this process!
  • sherpasherpa Registered User Posts: 4,705 Senior Member
    ^Runners2 is right; the entire app must be in for a LL to be issued. I think that the Joint Statement on Common Ivy Group Admissions Procedures is posted on all the Ivy school websites. From the Princeton site:

    The entire document should be read by any Ivy aspiring student-athlete, but a couple of sections warrant emphasis.
    Within each institution’s overall admissions process, from October 1 through March 15 an admission office may issue probabilistic communications, in writing, to applicants who are recruited student athletes. (Such probabilistic communications given by coaches, whether orally or in writing, do not constitute binding institutional commitments.) An applicant who receives one or more such written communications and who has made a decision to matriculate at one institution is encouraged (but not required) to notify all other
    institutions, and to withdraw all other applications, as promptly as possible.
    Note that the above section contemplates applicants receiving multiple LLs.
    An institution may send a “likely” probabilistic communication letter to a candidate (whether or not the applicant is a recruited student-athlete) only if the applicant has submitted all of the materials which the institution requires in order to make an admissions decision.
    As Runners2 noted, the full app must be in before a LL can be issued.
    No information referring to the admission or financial aid status of an applicant to an Ivy institution may be considered official unless it is received directly from that institution’s admission or financial aid office.
  • wilberry228wilberry228 Registered User Posts: 396 Member
    Sherpa, that is good info, thanks for posting the excerpts and the link.

    I'm foggy on the timelines for applying, OVs, LLs, LOIs, etc. My daughter is only looking at one ivy and it's probably the reach of the group both academically and athletically. But she may have a good chance, she is not out of range.

    By filling in the complete ivy application, she doesn't preclude herself from the D1 schools, does she? And does a complete app have to be in at every school where she might get a LOI also?

    Right now I'm still trying to light the fire for her to start the common app! But she's never home, between practices and work, and now she is away this week at a camp. And she has AP packets to complete too. It's going to be a crazy hectic fall, I think.
  • stemitstemit Registered User Posts: 575 Member
    Likely letters and National Letters of intent have vague similarities and are not to be confused. A “likely letter” is the Ivy League method of insuring that athletes are assured (absent some amazing disaster like a felony) of admission into the university. The LL’s allow the Ivy’s to compete with all universities in recruiting athletes. The LL is an Ivy League only process.

    The LL is given by admissions ONLY upon the submission of a completed application by the athlete. (Note: the LL has no interaction with financial aid; this may or may not be an issue with a family.) The LL is NOT binding upon the student (i.e., it is not a contract). But, for the overwhelming number of athletes it is the equivalent of a contract – in other words, you get one and you’re done with the recruiting process – you have committed!
    A coach has only a limited number of LL’s that he/she can seek. So in reality, while a recruit can seek more than one LL, the coach will wait until the student commits (non binding) before seeking the LL.

    There is a relationship between an “Official Visit” and a Likely Letter – but the strength of that relationship varies and is variable. Neither is a prerequisite of the other. Some coaches will not even consider giving an offer (and with that eventually a LL) without first having the recruit visit the school (and the players) (which can be either an OV or an unofficial visit). On the other hand, other coaches are prepared to give an offer (which is always contingent upon admissions having the final say) without a visit. (Side note: for baseball, many D1 schools use their OV’s to bring in players in a group AFTER the players have been accepted and signed LOI’s.)

    OV’s can occur only after the student has begun their senior year (and after the university semester has begun). Unofficial visits can occur anytime. A school has a limited number of OV’s and, therefore, if your S/D has been offered an OV he/she is using a precious spot. HOWEVER, an OV does not mean you will get an offer (much less get admitted) – but it is a good sign (actually a very good sign). If you get an invitation for an OV it will ALWAYS be after the coach/someone has determined that you are at least close to (if not above) admission guidelines. (In other words a coach will not give an OV invite without seeing your academic records.)

    National Letters of Intent are contracts signed by a player with a school. The LOI is a binding contract and can be rescinded only in certain circumstances (and generally with a lot of hassle). LOI’s are signed only in certain periods set forth by the NCAA (LL’s can be given anytime in the admission application process). Before the LOI is signed, the player has only a non-binding agreement with the school (mutually non-binding); but the overwhelming majority of players and schools stick to that non-binding agreement (though there are horror stories on both sides to the contrary). To sign an LOI, a completed admissions application is not needed – but if the player does not meet either NCAA or the school’s admissions requirement, it can be nullified. (To get the LL as stated above, the application must be completed.)

    Your D is not precluded upon getting an LL from pursuing a LOI from another D1 school (but if she got an LOI from one school she is precluded from signing an LOI at another school). But, in getting the LL make sure the coach knows she is not committing to that IVY so that everyone understands where everyone stands – that may or may not make a difference to the coach!

    So, in summarizing this novel, applications can be submitted wherever the university opens its application process; LL process begins no earlier than October 1 (but getting a completed app takes some time (it includes letters of rec, all standardized tests, transcripts and the dreaded essays – both common app and school specific). Signing an LOI does not require a completed app (the coach will tell you how much of an app needs to be completed). OV’s can occur no earlier than the start of both the player’s senior year and the schools semester. LOI dates are set by the NCAA; the LL dates are from October 1 until the school says it ends – the end of their app process.) Outside of the IVY’s, I know of students who got into very good academic schools as late as a week before the semester began – the school needed left-handed pitching! (Side note: beware of the LOI financial aid trap —before signing the LOI understand EXACTLY the financial aid situation.) (Last side note: the LOI is only a single year contract; it needs to be renewed each year. This means that your S/D is only assured of being on the team for a single year at a time.)

    Sorry about the length, I got on a roll. All corrections/modifications/qualifications are welcome!
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