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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • calmomcalmom Registered User Posts: 20,347 Senior Member
    @Tanbiko -- I didn't say that engineers made bad jurors. I said that people with a binary, right/wrong mindset make bad jurors. So if you want to get kicked off of a jury, just show up and project an air of superiority about who smart you are and how much better you are than others at doing things the right way.... and good chance they'll want you off the case.

  • CanuckguyCanuckguy Registered User Posts: 1,167 Senior Member
    The official GRE scores as listed by ETS are the first link in a Google search - https://www.ets.org/s/gre/pdf/gre_guide_table4.pdf -- and they are completely different than the very old blog post. For ties, I ordered by the additional sections.

    I knew they would do something like this eventually. Remember my comments about instrumentation? They p-hacked the GRE until political science students outscore physics majors? That means these instruments are no longer highly correlated with the Wechsler. I am betting the next step is to try to eliminate standardized testing all together because they are not "reliable", ignoring the fact that they deliberately make them unreliable. As collateral damage, this would make all education research using standardized test results questionable as well.

    Looking quickly at some of those studies again, another problem I see is range restriction. (It was mentioned by some posters as well). This is like doing a study on the importance of height to basketball by studying NBA players. One can very easily come to the conclusion that height is not that important to basketball because the correlation is low, deliberately leaving out the fact that correlation is low because NBA players have previously being selected on the basis of height.

    Another problem is the use of variance. I understand variance makes sense for math manipulation, but reporting the results in variance is dishonest. The natural unit is standard deviation and the results should be reported as such. Why else would you want to report in variance except to bamboozle the uninitiated? (For those who do not know, the square root of variance is the standard deviation. So a variance of .25 is actually a standard deviation of .5).

    I can go on, but I will stop here.





  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 604 Member
    edited March 11
    @calmom said:
    The point is, not everyone WANTS to be a STEM major -- including many who would be quite capable if they chose.

    Totally agree with that statement. I do see parents of all races in my area trying to "guide" their kids towards certain STEM majors, but I don't see that same push towards those "softer" majors. I only asked my kids to make sure they can "monetize"their future aspirations which meant going to grad school if they chose majors that end up with lower starting and mid-career salaries. The truth is that some of us can not chose what we want even if we have the ability (parents control the college purse strings or future circumstances such as coming out of school with a ton of debt) which leads some to choose the financially prudent course instead of what we may want to do.
    @calmom said:
    To me, the inability of people to see value outside of the STEM world simply represents an overall narrowness of perspective, which I also see essentially the opposite of intellectualism or intellectual achievement. There certainly is an odd level of cognitive dissonance when someone starts a long debate because they can't fathom why a law school would prefer an A student /English major from NYU over a B student from MIT.

    Yep. I guess from the perspective of guy raised in a hard-scrabbled upbringing, those are just 1st world problems that I will never understand. My own perspective is probably pretty narrow, but I continue to try and widen it:)
  • evergreen5evergreen5 Registered User Posts: 1,306 Senior Member
    The best scientists have the intellectual capacity to be the best lawyers if they so choose while the converse isn't true
    Unless... the would-be scientist chose to become a lawyer somewhere along the way. They aren't the majority, but they aren't that uncommon either. In particular, engineering to law isn't that rare.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,284 Senior Member
    @theloniusmonk If you think gender diversity is bad in high tech, racial diversity is even worse. There may be 3-4% urm in tech, and of that, probably 1-2% in actual product groups (pdt mgmt, engr, dev, etc) that can influence what products are built, how products are designed.

    It's an issue both ways, I agree. More of an issue if they are actively discouraged from choosing that than if they simply prefer something else, IMO.
  • skieuropeskieurope Super Moderator Posts: 41,067 Super Moderator
    MODERATOR'S NOTE:
    The official GRE scores as listed by ETS
    the research that proves that engineers make bad jurors?
    Just a couple of many many posts in the last few pages that are not even tangentially related to the thread. Please get back on topic. Further OT posts will be handled in accordance with ToS and will be deleted without notice or comment.
  • MaineLonghornMaineLonghorn Super Moderator Posts: 37,854 Super Moderator
    MODERATOR'S NOTE: @skieurope's post was not a SUGGESTION, but an INSTRUCTION. I just deleted another off-topic post. Please follow instructions or the thread will be closed.
  • Engineer80Engineer80 Registered User Posts: 452 Member
    I was once called for jury duty. The defense attorney asked the prospective jurors their occupations and educational backgrounds. I stated that I am a principal systems engineer for a major aerospace manufacturer designing airborne and spaceborne navigation and flight control systems and that I have bachelor's, master's and PhD degrees in electrical engineering, mathematics, and physics. They picked me for the jury.
  • CottonTalesCottonTales Registered User Posts: 984 Member
    edited March 11
    @Engineer80, your post has nothing to do with the thead topic. Please refer to the above moderators posts.
  • calmomcalmom Registered User Posts: 20,347 Senior Member
    Reading comprehension is very important for lawyers too. It's important in law to be able to pay attention to exactly what was written and read extra stuff into it that wasn't there.

    I would note that on the defense end of things, I would indeed sometimes want an engineer or scientist on a jury when my best hope was a hung jury. Especially if the prosecution case was tied to forensic evidence.
  • Engineer80Engineer80 Registered User Posts: 452 Member
    @CottonTales - Neither are the other posts discussing this tangential topic. I didn't start that digression.
  • MaineLonghornMaineLonghorn Super Moderator Posts: 37,854 Super Moderator
    edited March 11
    MODERATOR'S NOTE: People do not seem to be able to follow instructions. I am closing the thread. Will reopen it at some point. Engineer80 was banned not just for this violation, but a history of ignoring moderators' instructions.
  • MaineLonghornMaineLonghorn Super Moderator Posts: 37,854 Super Moderator
    MODERATOR'S NOTE: We are re-opening this thread with the expectation that people will follow moderators' instructions. Thank you for your cooperation.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,284 Senior Member
    I for one appreciate that MaineL, because the cheating scandal has raised a lot of Affirmative Action comparisons and issues. I can't count the articles and editorials I've seen comparing AA to athletic recruitment and legacy preferences this past week or so,as the scandal has cast a lot of light on those for the general public.
  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 604 Member
    @MaineLonghorn I second @OHMomof2 in my appreciation of you opening back up this thread.

    The news cycle of the last week has been dominated by the Admissions scandal that has ensnared a group of wealthy parents and one thing that has not been talked about is how race does or does not play into that narrative. One of the barriers (seems to have a racial significance) that is not mentioned is a lack of access that was available to the wealthy parents involved in the scandal. If the parents had gone through legal means (large donations or leveraging access to college presidents and other power players) or illegal ones, I am not seeing a lot of people of color mentioned in comparison to current population demographics in our society.

    We can talk about a meritocracy versus holistic measures, or legal (donations or AA narrowly defined) versus illegal (bribes or AA possibly going to far and being against the law because it is discrimination) admissions boosts, but the one thing that has been true and seems will be true is that the word "Merit" has different meanings for different folks. Most African Americans that I know categorizes making it into an elite institution despite some systemic discrimination encountered and in some cases having lower "stats" as making it in on "Merit" just as much as the student from a wealthy family who has had every advantage and whose family has given a large sum to X University considers that to be a selection based on "Merit". In the history of the Ivy League, how often has an entire student body been completely selected and based on a meritocracy alone?
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