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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 75,544 Senior Member
    In the history of the Ivy League, how often has an entire student body been completely selected and based on a meritocracy alone?

    Never if you mean academic merit. However, if "merit" is defined to include other factors desired by those colleges, such as relationships and connections (to donors, alumni, VIPs, even if just by birth lottery), then always.
  • dietz199dietz199 Registered User Posts: 3,560 Senior Member
    Thanks ML. This has, for the most part, been one of the most calmly reasoned discussions on a subject that tends to lean towards screaming and name calling.
  • jzducoljzducol Registered User Posts: 682 Member
    edited March 19
    Regarding the recent scandal I happen to think that the doors for middle to upper class white families have been so narrowed in recent years that even the 0.01%ers have to resort to desperate measures, some of them illegal. I heard last year from a Princeton AO that the hooked admits were about 70% of the class. I can only imagine what kind of the trickle down effect it would have on schools like USC. When the competition gets so fierce it should not be a surprise the preference of race becomes more of a focus and more contentious than it would have been ten years ago.
    Post edited by skieurope on
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 63 Junior Member
    I think that the lesson learned from the scandal is that admissions officers/universities have too much leverage to discriminate against people for things like race and ethnicity. Affirmative action programs are thinly veiled quota systems designed to boost schools' rankings and appease their donors. They are blatantly racist (and were even directly exploited in the latest scandal, which has largely been glossed over).
  • DolemiteDolemite Registered User Posts: 2,084 Senior Member
    Regarding the recent scandal I happen to think that the doors for middle to upper class white families have been so narrowed in recent years that even the 0.01%ers have to resort to desperate measures, some of them illegal. I heard last year from a Princeton AO that the hooked admits were about 70% of the class.

    But a large percentage of those 'hooked' admits were middle and upper class whites so I'm not sure what your point is.
  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 670 Member
    edited March 19
    @ucbalumnus Yep. And how often do I expect that they chose a class based primarily on academic merit in the future?I don't believe that will ever happen which basically means that they will always have the means to control who comes through those hallowed doors. Because the only thing more important than money (and the endowments are very important for status) is the power and perception that comes from from being associated with the brand.

    @jzducol I would have guessed that the percentage of hooked admits close to the number that you quoted from the Princeton AO. I believe that the hooks have always been a good percentage of the student bodies selected at a school such as Princeton, but the number of applicants who have the access to apply and who receives those hooks has changed over the years. My only ask when it comes to preferences is to evaluate all hooks instead of folks just focusing on race alone, and getting rid of some of the outdated ones (some of the non-revenue sports for example) along with moving past racial preferences in admissions. I have never personally been to a high school that has a crew team, but to have crew spots sewed up for admissions at top schools is never questioned. Good ole Satch. He loved to make people think. We didn't always agree, but we found common ground (our kids,our humble upbringings, and to put in work for what you want) and he definitely me made look at his side of any issue. He is probably irreplaceable on CC, because I don't know many people (I don't think I know anyone personally) with both his immense intellect and the guts to communicate such an unique perspective on race and elite admissions.
    Post edited by MaineLonghorn on
  • MaineLonghornMaineLonghorn Super Moderator Posts: 38,683 Super Moderator
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  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,563 Senior Member
    Affirmative action programs are thinly veiled quota systems designed to boost schools' rankings and appease their donors. They are blatantly racist (and were even directly exploited in the latest scandal, which has largely been glossed over).@wyzragamer

    I just read the lengthy NYMag rundown of all the families and indictments and not one used race in any way: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/college-admissions-scandal-what-every-kid-knew.html

    Which cases that were glossed over are you referring to?
  • 1NJParent1NJParent Registered User Posts: 878 Member
    However one defines "merit", it's incompatible with hooks, any hook. The very existence of hooks is to bypass or circumvent a merit-based process.
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 75,544 Senior Member
    1NJParent wrote:
    However one defines "merit", it's incompatible with hooks, any hook.

    Perhaps the colleges define "merit" to mean "whatever we like", including connections to donors, alumni, VIPs, etc., even if they were acquired by birth lottery or inheritance rather than the student's own achievement.
  • tpike12tpike12 Registered User Posts: 397 Member
    Regarding the recent scandal I happen to think that the doors for middle to upper class white families have been so narrowed in recent years that even the 0.01%ers have to resort to desperate measures, some of them illegal. I heard last year from a Princeton AO that the hooked admits were about 70% of the class.

    But a large percentage of those 'hooked' admits were middle and upper class whites so I'm not sure what your point is.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    To put this into context, you also need to understand the over representation of Jewish students in the Ivy league.

    Approximately 50% of the Ivy League is white
    Approximately 20% of the Ivy League is Jewish (while being approximately 2% of the population)
    Approximately 10% of the Ivy League is a recruited white athlete

    So approximately 20% of the slots are left for white students that aren't a recruited Athlete or Jewish. Asians are certainly getting squeezed out, but non-Jewish/non-recruited athlete whites are getting squeezed out even more.

  • hebegebehebegebe Registered User Posts: 2,553 Senior Member
    Let's assume that the 20% is accurate. In your opinion, are the admissions officers giving a bump to Jewish applicants, and if so, how are they screening for them? Or are they being admitted purely on merit?
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,563 Senior Member
    "Recruited athlete" has an admissions system that is totally separate from everyone else.

    "Jewish" and "White" do not, @tpike12

    Apples and oranges (though yes, most recruited athletes at the Ivies are white, and some may be Jewish).
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 63 Junior Member
  • tpike12tpike12 Registered User Posts: 397 Member
    Let's assume that the 20% is accurate. In your opinion, are the admissions officers giving a bump to Jewish applicants, and if so, how are they screening for them? Or are they being admitted purely on merit?

    Some are certainly getting in on merit, but think about this.

    There are approximately 3.6 million high school seniors in the USA and approximately 70,000 of them are Jewish, yet 20% of Ivy league slots go to Jewish students? For each high achieving Jewish student there are going to be many high achieving non-Jewish students. It's just math.

    And according to Harvard Hillel, Harvard Grad schools is 57% Jewish (2,500 of 4,402 grads)!

    Do I have an explanation or any insight into why there is this over representation? No. It just seems to be the hook that no one wants to talk about.
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