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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,839 Senior Member
    That's great for your daughter. But there is a difference between the derogatory connotation of a crutch vs. creating awareness and outreach programs to recruit perfectly capable women and URM's that might not have otherwise felt comfortable pursuing careers in white male dominated industries. And many big companies, the big banks and big 4 included are doing a lot to create work environments that will enable our daughters to climb the corporate ladder while maintaining their abilities to stay connected to their families, which is probably one of the biggest reasons why many women end up dropping out of the race to the very top positions (so I agree, it's certainly not only about discrimination). I commend the companies for their efforts to attract and recruit women and URM's.
  • tpike12tpike12 Registered User Posts: 376 Member
    @collegemomjam wrote:
    I didn't imply all white men think alike. You are choosing to read into that that way. But I'm not sure what your point was to begin with. That it's perfectly fine for white men to have historically received preferences and to run our nation's corporations and major institutions anyway because they don't all think alike anyway?

    It sure seems like what you wrote below is saying that increasing diversity (women and minorities) results in diversity of thought, but if that is not what you believe then we agree that not all white men think alike.
    And is it that these companies are trying to decrease the amount of white men in leadership positions or is it perhaps that they feel their company would be better served in the end by having more diversity in upper management? That the diversity of thought would in the end be a good thing for their company?

    The past is the past. It was a different time. You have a group of young Americans that are ready to be the most accepting generation in the history of America and you want to use punish them by using discrimination to balance historical discrimination?

    Companies are eager and willing to hire talented women and minorities, why taint it with discrimination?





  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,839 Senior Member
    I agree the companies are doing a lot, but there were comments being made that said white men were watching less deserving women and URM's take their promotions away.... how is that "..a group of young Americans that are ready to be the most accepting generation in the history of America"?

    With that said, I would only hope that you are right and that this IS indeed the most accepting generation in the history of America, but I'm not so sure sometimes. It looked like we were headed that way, but there seems to be some backlash, unfounded in my opinion because I truly don't see the victimization of the white people the way some others do.
  • skieuropeskieurope Super Moderator Posts: 42,005 Super Moderator
    edited April 15
    MODERATOR'S NOTE:
    So the thread does not get shut down again, might I "suggest" that the personal examples of life's not fair that don't relate to college applications and affirmative action cease and that comments after mine deal with the thread topic.
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,839 Senior Member
    I agree with a lot of what you say @hebegebe, I just think there might be factors in addition to that impact scores/grades in addition to low income that might justify a SLIGHTLY lower bar. It seems like for the tippy top schools, the lower-bar admits still have decent stats. I guess it just comes down to how we define "holistic" admissions, which I guess they tried to quantify with their personality assessments. I just feel like no matter how they select their classes, there will be "losers" because there just aren't enough spots for the many, many qualified applicants.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,561 Senior Member
    I think in the case of H, the bar is already set very high. It's above 95% of applicants, in fact.
  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 664 Member
    edited April 15
    @hebegebe Amazing post on outreach/marketing to increase achievement and interest my friend.
  • theloniusmonktheloniusmonk Registered User Posts: 2,083 Senior Member
    "I also don't get 32% for URM. The survey reports 10.7% Black and 6.7% Hispanic for a total of 17% between these two single-race categories."

    the website https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics has AA at 15.2, Hispanic at 12.3, Native American and Native Hawaiian at 2.3, giving 29.8, plus an estimate of 3-4% for more than one is where I got the 32%. Honestly though, I think the website tends to overstate URM enrollment, to make it look like there are more URMs than there actually are, not just for Harvard but other colleges as well. The surveys and CDS are probably better, I agree.
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 75,336 Senior Member
    edited April 16
    the website https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics has AA at 15.2, Hispanic at 12.3, Native American and Native Hawaiian at 2.3, giving 29.8, plus an estimate of 3-4% for more than one is where I got the 32%.

    It is possible that the percentages are larger than typical enrolled percentages because:

    A. These are admit percentages, not enrolled percentages.

    B. The percentages may be inclusive (rather than exclusive) of multiracial students. I.e. someone who is black and NH may be counted in both percentages if they are inclusive of multiracial students, even though typical stats (e.g. from College Navigator) would include that student in the multiracial category, but not the black or NH categories. (Inclusive percentages would add up to more than 100% if there are any multiracial students.)
  • Data10Data10 Registered User Posts: 2,775 Senior Member
    edited April 16
    ucbalumnus summarized it well. Harvard's website intentionally lists the racial percentages in a way to make it appear that URM enrollment is larger than actually occurs by listing admit instead of enrolled, double counting multi-racial students to make totals sum to >100%, and likely doing something unexpected with international students. I expect they choose to list a higher URM enrollment like this for marketing reasons.

    If you look at any other reliable source, the URM enrollment will be much lower. For example, the federal database at https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=harvard&s=all&id=166027#enrolmt says Harvard's URM percentages are 7% Black and 11% Hispanic, and 0% Native American. IPEDS URM percentages match above. A more detailed sumamry by year is below:

    Harvard Single Race URM Enrollment
    2017 -- 7% Black, 11% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2016 -- 7% Black, 11% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2015 -- 6% Black, 10% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2014 -- 6% Black, 10% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2013 -- 6% Black, 9% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2012 -- 6% Black, 9% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2011 -- 6% Black, 8% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2010 -- 6% Black, 8% Hispanic, 0% Native American
    2009 -- 7% Black, 7% Hispanic, 1% Native American

    Some selective colleges choose to enhance URM enrollment like this on their websites, while others do not. For example, Princeton lists the same URM enrollment on their website as they do in the federal databases above. Specific numbers are below, which seem very similar to Harvard.

    Princeton Single Race URM Enrollment
    Princeton's Website (https://admission.princeton.edu/how-apply/admission-statistics) -- 8% Black, 10% Hispanic
    College Navigator (https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=princeton&s=all&id=186131#enrolmt) -- 8% Black, 10% Hispanic
  • gallentjillgallentjill Registered User Posts: 2,371 Senior Member
    When you say "single race" does that mean that the student chooses one race to identify with? So, someone who is Black and Hispanic would identify or be identified as either Black or Hispanic but not mixed?
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 75,336 Senior Member
    When you say "single race" does that mean that the student chooses one race to identify with? So, someone who is Black and Hispanic would identify or be identified as either Black or Hispanic but not mixed?

    It means that a category like "black" includes only those who checked only "black", but not those who checked "black" and some other category like "white" or "Asian" (those who checked more than one category are listed as "multiracial").

    Note that "Latino" / "Hispanic" is commonly a separate question, so that (in exclusive categorization) anyone who says "yes" to that question is listed as "Latino" / "Hispanic" regardless of what race categories s/he indicated.

    It would give a better picture if both inclusive and exclusive percentages for each group were listed.
  • Data10Data10 Registered User Posts: 2,775 Senior Member
    edited April 17
    When you say "single race" does that mean that the student chooses one race to identify with? So, someone who is Black and Hispanic would identify or be identified as either Black or Hispanic but not mixed?
    My post above was misleading. The common app has the following 3 relevant questions for federal race methodology. The single race part only applies to the 3rd question. IPEDS classifies any domestic student who says yes to question #2 as Hispanic, regardless of their answer to question #3. So a student who is Hispanic + Black is classified as Hispanic and not Black, while a student who is White + Black is classified as "Two or More Races".

    1. Select your citizenship status.
    2. Are you Hispanic or Latino?
    3. Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you identify yourself (Select one or more): American Indian, Asian, Black, Pacific Islander, White.

    IPEDS New Methodology for Mixed Race
    IF (Non-citizen is selected), race = Non-resident Alien
    ELSE IF (Hispanic is selected), race = Hispanic
    ELSE race = Two or More Races

    The academic bar is not very high with an academic index of decile 7 or below. It is questionable that this level would represent decent stats.
    The Arcidiacono document has a graph showing the specific scores of admitted students. In the most recent available year, the graph suggests the overall admitted class had a mean SAT subscore of slightly over 740 (start of ~99th percentile), while African American admits had a mean of slightly under 720 (start of ~98th percentile).. This seems reasonably consistent with the CDS for that year, which lists a 25th percentile score of 700/710 or 32 ACT. I'd consider a 98th percentile SAT score in the low 700s to be "represent decent stats," but I realize some others would not. I do agree that African American applicants get a strong boost in admission and are far more likely to be admitted with stats in the range you listed than typical unhooked ORMs.

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