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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger Registered User Posts: 2,608 Senior Member
    Are we close to a decision on the Harvard case? Does anyone know?

    The trial has concluded. We should expect a decision soon from the judge who heard the case, but that won't be the end of it. The losing party will likely appeal and a final decision will likely take years.
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,873 Senior Member
    Thanks @roethlisburger

    And I should probably know this, but is the UNC case also still pending?
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 65 Junior Member
    It just seems like there is a big gray area between what is legal and illegal discrimination then.

    There's not really a big area, I think. It's like saying there's a big gray area between justifiable homicide and murder. The issue is that the universities are extremely well-funded influential organizations which are quickly able to rally legal power and public opinion to their cause. People trust them, although this trust might not be justified.

    Ethnic scholarships have historically also been a contentious issue. I think most states have laws forbidding public entities from awarding ethnic scholarships, although they allow private scholarships. I remember rumblings in the 90s about a federal ban, as well, although ultimately they were allowed to continue.

    In Canada, the Ontario Human Rights Commission is strongly against ethnic scholarships. They support scholarships intended to: relieve hardship or economic disadvantage, assist disadvantaged persons or groups to achieve or attempt to achieve equal opportunity, or help eliminate the infringement of rights that are protected under the Human Rights Code. But they do not permit discrimination based on race or other characteristic protected by the Code.
    http://www.ohrc.on.ca/sites/default/files/attachments/Policy_on_scholarships_and_awards.pdf
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 65 Junior Member
    And the OHRC reasoning matches mine on this point. I'm all for helping economically disadvantaged people, or people who are suffering from the lasting and historical effects of discriminatory policies. But if the logic for affirmative action is a fear that the university will become 75% Asian, then frankly I think it's outright racism.
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 65 Junior Member
    @collegemomjam As for UNC, both sides filed for summary judgment. No ruling yet, as far as I know. A trial, if it will happen, has not started yet.

    Some juicy info from SFFA filing:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/20/unc-race-admissions-1162175
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,612 Senior Member
    if the logic for affirmative action is a fear that the university will become 75% Asian, then frankly I think it's outright racism.

    That's never been the "logic for affirmative action".
    I'm all for helping economically disadvantaged people, or people who are suffering from the lasting and historical effects of discriminatory policies.

    Both of these have, at various points, been the "logic for affirmative action". Diversity as a benefit to non-URM students is a newer one, and one IMO forced by older supreme court decisions.

    Also this thread has a LOT more than 4475 posts. See post one:
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 3
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 4
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 5
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 6
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 7
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 8
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 9
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 10
    "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 11

    ...this current one is "12". The first one began in 2008.
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,873 Senior Member
    @wyzragamer you said:

    " I'm all for helping economically disadvantaged people, or people who are suffering from the lasting and historical effects of discriminatory policies."

    As it relates to college admissions, how would you suggest we help "...people who are suffering from the lasting and historical effects of discriminatory policies?" How would identify these people? Would helping them have better access to college not be part of that equation?
  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 698 Member
    I just wanted to pass on a 20 year old essay by Dr. John McWhorter (was a professor at UC Berkeley when the article was written who is now at Columbia) who breaks down the black achievement gap and his thoughts on AA. This is a very long essay that scares me, because it touches on my worst fears that I have also personally seen (that African Americans as a group can be a detriment to ourselves). Without a Black cultural awaking to fight against being a victim and an almost group African American fear of being like White Americans in any way (including things such shunning academically high achieving African Americans), AA and any other actions taken to help African Americans as a group in society will fail. The only thing on this thread that has ever bothered me over my time following this thread is that some don't believe their is any achievement gap (standardized testing does not tell anything about students or is culturally biased), and I believe that thinking in that manner is the enemy of black people. My wife sees the gap in her classrooms in general (she has had some great African American students, but many more who are not even scratching the surface of their potentials) and we have to stop pretending that their is no gap.

    http://archive.wilsonquarterly.com/essays/explaining-black-education-gap
  • OhiBroOhiBro Registered User Posts: 201 Junior Member
    Great read, @ChangeTheGame . Seems to support the theory that blacks are academically lazy, as shown by persistent achievement gaps despite being on a level playing field.

    The culture that AA promotes, that of lowering standards and rewarding mediocrity, persists beyond college.

    Blacks make up 10% of private sector employment, where the profit motivation demands excellence, there is no job security, and few pension benefits.

    Blacks make up 18% of the federal civilian workforce, where there is no motivation for profit, high job security, and cushy pensions.

    Blacks make up 13% of the population. So why do they collectively seem to be choosing the easier path?

    It isn’t any wonder how even the best achieving blacks carry the suspicion of being the beneficiary of AA. And that is sad.

    Too many have gone overboard with the altruism of AA because at some point, one can no longer make excuses.
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 65 Junior Member
    @collegemomjam
    As it relates to college admissions, how would you suggest we help "...people who are suffering from the lasting and historical effects of discriminatory policies?" How would identify these people? Would helping them have better access to college not be part of that equation?

    For example, someone who has suffered from this kind of disadvantage could write a compelling essay about this in their essay portion. I'd be OK with universities doing more recruitment in low-income/majority minority schools, outreach in the local community, support for admitted minority students (funding for ethnic clubs, mental health resources) giving socioeconomic consideration in admissions, doing away with legacy programs, even giving moderate AA preferences to blacks and Native Americans under the premise of social justice.

    Anything other than the current regime that diversity is king and Asians simply aren't diverse.

    @OHMomof2
    That's never been the "logic for affirmative action".

    User collegemomjam asked me if I would be OK with Harvard at 75% Asian. So it clearly is the logic for some people, and I was just responding to that.
  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 698 Member
    I am surprised that I haven't seen the admissions numbers mentioned for the Harvard class of 2023 of the percentage of Asian Americans admitted (25.4%) which is a 12 percent increase from the class of 2022 (22.7% of the class admitted was Asian American). That is definitely the biggest percentage increase in the recent history that I have looked at data (10 year time frame). Is that the lawsuit at work or due to something else (increase in the number of Asian American applicants for example) or maybe a combination of both?

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/3/29/2023-admit-numbers/
  • wyzragamerwyzragamer Registered User Posts: 65 Junior Member
    edited April 22
    @ChangeTheGame

    Before more data is released, I would venture to guess that it is the lawsuit that is responsible.

    In 2012 there was a significant increase in the percentage of admits who identified as Asian, and a corresponding significant decrease for blacks and Hispanics (https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/19/acceptance-rates-by-race/). This corresponds with the beginnings of the current lawsuit against Harvard. These percentages had remained relatively constant for at least 20 years (http://www.unz.com/runz/asian-quotas-in-the-ivy-league-we-see-nothing/).

    College consultants seem to be aware of this trend as well. On the past admissions cycle, Brian Taylor of Ivy Coach stated:
    “In past years have we discouraged our Asian-American applicants with their perfect grades and perfect scores from applying to Harvard? Sure,” Taylor said. “And as much as we’ve discouraged them in the past we’re encouraging them this year because they eyes of the Department of Justice are looking.”

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/11/7/admissions-trial-review-college-counselors/

    I speculate that universities will covertly change their admissions policy to comply with the law, and therefore avoid any penalty for their past actions (just like what happened with Jewish quotas).
  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,873 Senior Member
    @ChangeTheGame I was actually wondering that very thing...I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with the law suit.

    As it relates to these facts posted by @OhiBro in response to the article you posted, on the topic of blacks and employment...

    25 years ago, I was the manager of a sales force for a fortune 500 company in Manhattan. My team was mostly made up of young, recent white male college grads. I am white and had only been out of college for 5 years, so many of my team members were my peers and we became very friendly. There were also two black women who were a little older than me (late 30's ish) who I became very friendly with as well. The office we worked in was overall very white. Probably 80-90%.

    My subordinates could be either level ones or level twos. There was incentive to become a level two (pay raise, and just overall career progression). The other managers and I typically advocated for our subordinates and tried to get the deserving ones promoted when the time was right. They were usually quite motivated to do so and we would have frequent meetings to make sure they were meeting the requirements to move towards promotion.

    One of the black women on my team had been there longer than any of us. She was a solid performer. She was at her desk before everyone else every day and never left early. She was completely reliable and her clients loved her. I never understood why she wasn't already a level two when I started.

    So I treated her just like everyone else and she progressed to a level two, as she totally deserved to (and was overdue in my opinion). Even my boss (an obnoxious white woman who I eventually helped get demoted because she was a discriminatory bitch) who had to approve all of the promotions was completely supportive of the promotion for this woman on my team. There wasn't one bad thing to say about her. She was steady as a rock.

    A few days after her promotion she came to my office with a little potted plant for me as a gift. With tears in her eyes she gave it to me and said that no one had ever done so much to help her before. I was shocked because I was just treating her like everyone else, but I guess, for whatever reason, she wasn't used to that treatment and certainly wasn't expecting it.

    I'm still confused by what happened and why no one ever moved her through the promotion process before. She obviously felt "different". She probably could have been more aggressive in seeking out her promotion, but for some reason she wasn't. She was just lost in the shuffle, waiting for her turn. It was almost like she just assumed she wasn't going to get it. But she was thrilled to finally get it.

    This was just one person, obviously. But an experience I will never forget and still think about to this day.

    Another very interesting thing that happened this same year. The woman I promoted and the other black woman on my team came to my office the day they were announcing the OJ Simpson decision. Like I said, we were close. They obviously felt close enough to me to ask if we could put the radio on and listen to the verdict in my office with the door closed. When he was found "not-guilty", they cheered. I was shocked that he wasn't guilty. I didn't know what to expect or do, but I almost felt like I should congratulate them, crazy as that sounds. They were so happy...I think they knew that he was guilty, but they felt his vindication was something to celebrate. Like they beat the system that has been oppressive (but ironically, probably really just a testimony to how having money can get you out of crimes!)....I felt conflicted. Shocked and disappointed by the verdict, but happy for my friends. It was honestly one of the strangest moments in my life.

    I'm honestly not even sure what to make of either of these stories that I just shared. I just know they have made a permanent impression on my mind and given the context of our discussions, I thought others might find these stories interesting.

  • collegemomjamcollegemomjam Registered User Posts: 1,873 Senior Member
    @ChangeTheGame I was actually wondering that very thing...I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with the law suit.

    As it relates to these facts posted by @OhiBro in response to the article you posted, on the topic of blacks and employment...

    25 years ago, I was the manager of a sales force for a fortune 500 company in Manhattan. My team was mostly made up of young, recent white male college grads. I am white and had only been out of college for 5 years, so many of my team members were my peers and we became very friendly. There were also two black women who were a little older than me (late 30's ish) who I became very friendly with as well. The office we worked in was overall very white. Probably 80-90%.

    My subordinates could be either level ones or level twos. There was incentive to become a level two (pay raise, and just overall career progression). The other managers and I typically advocated for our subordinates and tried to get the deserving ones promoted when the time was right. They were usually quite motivated to do so and we would have frequent meetings to make sure they were meeting the requirements to move towards promotion.

    One of the black women on my team had been there longer than any of us. She was a solid performer. She was at her desk before everyone else every day and never left early. She was completely reliable and her clients loved her. I never understood why she wasn't already a level two when I started.

    So I treated her just like everyone else and she progressed to a level two, as she totally deserved to (and was overdue in my opinion). Even my boss (an obnoxious white woman who I eventually helped get demoted because she was a discriminatory horror) who had to approve all of the promotions was completely supportive of the promotion for this woman on my team. There wasn't one bad thing to say about her. She was steady as a rock.

    A few days after her promotion she came to my office with a little potted plant for me as a gift. With tears in her eyes she gave it to me and said that no one had ever done so much to help her before. I was shocked because I was just treating her like everyone else, but I guess, for whatever reason, she wasn't used to that treatment and certainly wasn't expecting it.

    I'm still confused by what happened and why no one ever moved her through the promotion process before. She obviously felt "different". She probably could have been more aggressive in seeking out her promotion, but for some reason she wasn't. She was just lost in the shuffle, waiting for her turn. It was almost like she just assumed she wasn't going to get it. But she was thrilled to finally get it.

    This was just one person, obviously. But an experience I will never forget and still think about to this day.

    Another very interesting thing that happened this same year. The woman I promoted and the other black woman on my team came to my office the day they were announcing the OJ Simpson decision. Like I said, we were close. They obviously felt close enough to me to ask if we could put the radio on and listen to the verdict in my office with the door closed. When he was found "not-guilty", they cheered. I was shocked that he wasn't guilty. I didn't know what to expect or do, but I almost felt like I should congratulate them, crazy as that sounds. They were so happy...I think they knew that he was guilty, but they felt his vindication was something to celebrate. Like they beat the system that has been oppressive (but ironically, probably really just a testimony to how having money can get you out of crimes!)....I felt conflicted. Shocked and disappointed by the verdict, but happy for my friends. It was honestly one of the strangest moments in my life.

    I'm honestly not even sure what to make of either of these stories that I just shared. I just know they have made a permanent impression on my mind and given the context of our discussions, that ot

  • ChangeTheGameChangeTheGame Registered User Posts: 698 Member
    edited April 22
    @collegemomjam Your story in corporate America is one that I now live (along with a good deal of my friends) and I have noticed that my African American female friends have had many more challenges trying to climb the corporate ladder. I honestly believe that being a black man has been an advantage in my career (I am currently only black person on my work team of 30 people), but I think my biggest advantage has been my unique perspective, developing a consultant level expertise in my particular space, and a work ethic (I am the 1st one to the office everyday and I am always available (24/7/365). I see more challenges for women than I do being an African American man in corporate America (Top levels of my very large company are at least 80% male). As far as the O.J. Simpson trial, I was a sophomore in college at my HBCU when the verdict was read and the campus exploded with happiness (although most of my friends believed he was guilty as well). I personally felt surprised and was subdued by the decision, but it was a moment that I will never forget because it was the absolute 1st time in my life that I understood that their was something that could make race obsolete and a probable guilty man innocence in a court of law (wealth and the power that comes in understanding how the system works so it can be manipulated). @collegemomjam, you are just a good person looking for the best way to make things better and I am always thankful for your posts even though we don't always agree.



    @wyzragamer said: I speculate that universities will covertly change their admissions policy to comply with the law, and therefore avoid any penalty for their past actions (just like what happened with Jewish quotas).

    I think you may be right. By the time a decision on AA is rendered in the Harvard case, it may be moot because the policy that was part of the lawsuit may not exist in the same form.

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