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"Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

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Replies to: "Race" in College Applications FAQ & Discussion 12

  • SirPepsiSirPepsi Registered User Posts: 396 Member
    @rlpak14 If the data does, as you claim, "bear out," please tell us why this is important. I've not jumped onto Ali's wagon primarily because I concede unfamiliarity with the precise figures that have been collected with respect to Affirmative Action in Universities and Medical Schools - I have, however, sought to identify your motivation...

    What is it you'd like this data to demonstrate? If it does demonstrate what you feel it does, what do you propose be done? Acknowledge what I've said regarding historical context and understand that even if the statistics align with what you've asserted, it's justified.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    Medical schools like Morehouse and Howard are historically black medical schools that take only African American students

    Just a minor point here - the HBCU colleges and med schools accept students of any race, not only AA students. They are the majority I'm sure, but it is not the policy of Howard (just one example) to not accept white, Asian, etc students.

    http://healthsciences.howard.edu/education/colleges/medicine/admissions
  • Ali1302Ali1302 Registered User Posts: 293 Junior Member
    @rlpak14 I'm not sure what the GPA or MCAT score for HBCU is but could you at least add a source to the 3.5 GPA and 27 MCAT score claim. HBCUs would usually interview African Americans with atleast a 24 MCAT and a 3.0 GPA as the schools state thisis the minimum to be considered on there websites.

    I believe the percentage URMs at HBCUs is around 75%-78% not sure if your 60% stat is accurate could you provide a source for that aswell. If the percentage is around 5% as you claim then it certainly has an impact on the statistics considering most of these students would be in the 24-30 MCAT score and 3.2-3.8 GPA range.

    "You somehow come to the conclusion that only Black students want to work in underprivileged communities without any data to support this"

    I never made such a claim, if you read my previous comment I stated that African American students were more likely to work in underserved communities not that they were the only group to work in underserved areas. This is proven by the fact HBCUs are the top medical schools in the country in terms of social mission and they are majority African Americans. If Asian or white students were as keen to work in underserved areas then why don't Michigan or UCLA medical school rank among the best in the list especially since they rank well in terms of primary care? As a result of this African American applicants would get a boost for having goals of improving healthcare and working in underserved areas which are more consistent with some medical schools missions.


    "Please provide data to prove that the Black acceptance rate would be similar to that of Asians and Whites. Good luck with that."

    I just did. The fact that historically black medical schools are the best in terms of social mission and the strong correlation between social mission rank and URM percentage clearly demonstrate that most African American students have the goal of working in underserved areas.

    I'm sorry but MCAT and GPA although I would hold the most weight in admission do not hold all the weight. Other subjective factors would result in students being rejected or accepted to medical schools, there is just no assurance that you would be admitted simply because you're academically suitable. Students have to demonstrate they have the qualities of a doctor and medical schools like to fill there classes with students of diverse interests and extracurriculars. There is also the issue of being consistent with a medical schools mission and as a result being a good fit for a specific school. The fact is African Americans have the lowest overall admit rate to medical schools and are given a boost mainly because of their commitment to underserved communities aswell as primary care.
  • Ali1302Ali1302 Registered User Posts: 293 Junior Member
    edited January 2016
    @rlpa14 I would like to address your comments on @SirPepsi in terms of Socioeconomics. You are right that in pure numbers terms poor Whites and Asians would out number blacks, however African American applicants and URMs have a much higher poor/poverty RATE.

    In order to have a fair system of considering students for a socioeconomic boost in admission you have to consider demographics. View it this way since URMs have the highest poverty rates they get a larger share of the socioeconomic boost in admission, this doesn't mean Whites or Asians don't get a boost they still would but it would be a smaller share according to each groups poverty/low income rate. Using this method you can ensure that both URMs, White and Asian low income applicants have the same likelihood of getting a socioeconomic boost in admission.

    If you don't consider demographics, the system would be unfair since URM low income applicants would have a lower likelihood of being considered in comparison to Whites and Asians. In order to evenly distribute socio-economic benefits demographics has to be taken into account. That is why low income URMs would get a higher share of the boost regardless to evenly distribute consideration of low income groups of all ethnicities equally.

    Also, your rich black kid example is baseless. A very low percentage of African American applicants are in a high enough income bracket to be considered rich. Even rich black applicants suffer from disadvantages there rich White or Asian counterparts don't so the boost even in this category applies. Also, I agree with a socioeconomic Affirmative action based system which is basically what we have in university admissions today.

    I don't believe the 2200+ figure is inaccurate at all, keep in mind that most African Americans enrolled at Harvard are infact first/second generation black migrants that tend to do very well in terms of SAT scores and GPA. Anywhere from 60% to 70% of African Americans enrolled in ivies are first/second generation migrants.

    Finally, your insistent on latching on to a research conducted during the late 90's demonstrates you ignorance on this topic since race disparities have changed over time. The wealth gap between African Americans and Whites has also increased. I also highly doubt that the score gap has increased since recent studies have shown that the mean African American IQ has increased to 89 up from 85. How could African American IQ increase yet test scores decrease??????
  • Ali1302Ali1302 Registered User Posts: 293 Junior Member
    edited January 2016
    @OHMomof2 "Just a minor point here - the HBCU colleges and med schools accept students of any race, not only AA students. They are the majority I'm sure, but it is not the policy of Howard (just one example) to not accept white, Asian, etc students."

    Around 75%-80% of students at HBCUs are URMs and in my opinion it should be 100% because of the shortage of African American applicants in general.


  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    in my opinion it should be 100% because of the shortage of African American applicants in general.

    Yes it probably should. I don't think they take many.

    Howard's med school averages are GPA: 3.41, MCAT Score: 27 according to

    http://medical-schools.startclass.com/l/96/Howard-University-College-of-Medicine
  • SAYSAY Registered User Posts: 934 Member
    This topic has been so thoroughly covered that here is nothing new here to discuss especially by posters who lack the statistical knowledge to understand the many basic errors of their positions.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    Feel free to avoid the topic then :D
  • SAYSAY Registered User Posts: 934 Member
    edited January 2016
    The purpose of this site is to help students and families learn the actual facts about how colleges admit students. There are many other more appropriate places for HS students and others to discuss their ideological free speech rights. There is no controversy about the fact that all elite colleges give large admission preference to URM's. It varies slightly from school to school and from URM applicant to applicant(poor, first to college versus the child of doctors etc.)How exactly does having sociology discussions with a HS student who lacks basic statistical knowledge do anything except expose the silliness of the discussion.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    I think you miss the point of an online forum, @SAY . Within certain parameters we can discuss whatever we want. And you are free to avoid those discussions.
  • SAYSAY Registered User Posts: 934 Member
    edited January 2016
    The parameters include giving applicants accurate information. Included in the last few pages of posts are numerous examples of factually inaccurate statements. For goodness sakes professor Sanders has published the actual recent admission data from UCLA which is a school that gives a smaller URM boost than the private colleges. This is the system as it exists today and the applicants and their parents should be told the truth on this admission site. The standards are higher for knowledgeable adults.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    Clearly you are invested in stating your opinion on this topic, so why the complaints?
  • SAYSAY Registered User Posts: 934 Member
    edited January 2016
    Please highlight what you are calling my opinion. Everything I posted is completely factual and corroborated by large amounts of published data and books. Why would a knowledge person want to pretend that being a URM isn't a large advantage in admission at every elite school. It's common knowledge in every competitive HS in the USA. Pretending this fact isn't true is a disservice to the new readers. The strategy for successful admission to elite schools is all about trying to find a hook of some sort. Without a hook admission to HPYS and a few other top schools is extremely unlikely even with 99th percentile stats. This is a fact not an opinion.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 11,660 Senior Member
    Everything I posted is completely factual and corroborated by large amounts of published data and books.

    The thing is, so are may other people's opinions. The world isn't black and white, @SAY . There's a lot of grey and a lot of room for intelligent people to disagree.

    And that's what this thread is for. You can say you're right and everyone else is wrong as often as you like, certainly you're entitled, but repetition doesn't make it so :)
    Why would a knowledge person want to pretend that being a URM isn't a large advantage in admission at every elite school.

    Who says this? Of course it's a plus at many schools. Not a huge one and not at all of them, however.

    Now that's MY opinion based on "books and published data" I have read, as well as my own personal experience. I am certainly not so immature as to say that is the only valid opinion one can hold.

    It seems like you just want everyone participating on these race threads - all 12 of them holding thousands of posts going back to about 2007 - to acknowledge that you know everything about this subject because you say so and you enjoy putting down others who don't agree with you.

    Ain't gonna happen.
  • SAYSAY Registered User Posts: 934 Member
    edited January 2016
    Mom what a weak response for an adult with a child at a top college. Some things are facts and some things are opinion. Arguing about the fairness of AA is opinion. Stating that being a URM is a major advantage at every elite college is a concrete fact. Now there are many hooks and the athletic hook is even better than being a URM. By openly arguing hooks don't exist you are flagging yourself as an ideologically driven person not to be taken seriously. You are being dishonest when you say this is an opinion. Is there an exception? Yes Caltech and there over 40% of the admissions go to Asians. Ideology is a very poor substitute for an honest factual analysis.
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