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## Replies to: SAT subject tests are NOT truly optional for middle/upper middle class applicants at elite colleges!

43,701Super Moderator32,430Senior MemberFolks. Listen to ski (and a few others.) When you apply with 40k others, when adcoms need to filter hard and fast, when there are thousands just like you, but THEY submitted it all, with strengths, you may very well get set aside. You could be the one with the file note, "sorry we don't have further scores."

No, they don't always insist. But be logical.

And this notion you only need an S2 to make up for a bad grade? Or in some unrelated field? What you need is to be on your game, 110%. Or 150%. Or they'll pick others.

Again, elites. A broad category of top and tippy top that filter purposefully, even brutally. A competition, not a walk in the park.

33Junior Member5,264Senior MemberAs I said, my own son, an MIT graduate, got 800s on his Math II and Physics subject tests (actually got his 800 in 8th grade on the Physics test), but MIT really does look at context for URM students (women, ethnic URMs, first gen, etc.) because diversity greatly matters to MIT. They are very upfront about that. They also look at more than test scores. I've worked with students who've gotten into MIT and students who haven't, and it has never surprised me to see who gets in and who doesn't.

My recent response was to someone who was asking about their non-STEM subject tests and my response was, and still is, send it in. A 700+ on a non-STEM subject test shows depth beyond STEM.

2,222Senior MemberI've rarely been surprised by MIT, they say they admit the best math, science and engineering students and they do. The MIT grads I've worked with are top notch, no questioning them like, "how did they get into MIT?", which does happen for other colleges.

5,264Senior MemberMy students that apply to MIT all have strong STEM involvement, but in this recent app cycle, it was actually my student who lacked a lot of advanced work and STEM-related activities that was selected over two others who had many more STEM achievements...but I can easily guess why this student got in, and I know this student will do an amazing job at MIT.

339MemberThanks!

3,664Senior Member461Member76,699Senior Member2,328Senior MemberBut not always automatically. Mine sort of skimmed through Algebra II and Geometry, while almost skipping probability. She did fine in her Trig and Calculus classes, but neither in SAT Math nor Math II, until this Summer when she took a Stat course and put a big effort in reviewing a Sat Math II prep book. This was part of my long term education plan. I focused most of her early math learning on deductive reasoning, and thought all standard math subjects will catch up as they are needed.

Now, I think comparing recommended and considered, or wording of "not disadvantage" are all silly in competitive college admission. If SAT Subject tests are only considered and you are not disadvantaged for not taking them, but your otherwise similar peers took them and are advantaged because it was "considered," then you will have a less chance to get accepted as a result of not doing all you could. It doesn't matter how they are called. It is a zero sum game. If someone is advantaged and you are not, then you are disadvantaged.

You can prep for SAT Math & Math II together, while working on SAT Reading & Literature together, and you got two SAT Subject tests covered. And you can take a science SAT Subject test right after taking an AP Science test, or just completing a science course's final for that subject.

1,385Senior MemberMaybe yes, maybe no. It really depends on the kid and the precalculus class she took. A familiarity with basic functions and trigonometrics especially will of course be very useful for calculus, but some typical precalculus topics like matrices, conics, combinatorics and probability, complex numbers, and even vectors are either not encountered in most beginning single variable calculus classes or will have been treated so cursorily in precalc as to be useless.

The takeaway imo is that kids should take the math level 2 subject test as soon as possible after studying precalc; they shouldn't rely on the idea that AP Calc will have kept their aptitude for most of the precalc topics likely to be encountered on the subject test.

43,701Super ModeratorThe other takeaway IMO is that there are few examples of "in lieu of;" if a college wants a Subject Test and does not offer an in lieu of, then is wants a Subject Test, not an A in Multivariable Calculus (which is still great, but not what they asked for.

134Junior MemberFor the non-native cohort (which probably includes a non-trivial percentage of natives and heritage speakers tbh), the percentiles are of course very different. Whether this distinction is appreciated by AOs is another matter. I tend to think that at the schools that care about STs, the AOs will have some appreciation for the student’s language background.

If you were able to actually look at non-natives who just studied the language at a US high school, I would wager that the percentage of 800 scores is among the lowest of all Subject Tests.

134Junior MemberWe won’t *subtract* points from your app if you don’t submit ST’s—that’s as far as they say. They neglect the qualification:but that doesn’t mean we won’t add points to somebody else’s app if they submit ST’s.