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Hamas Is In Control

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Replies to: Hamas Is In Control

  • guguruguguru 374 replies33 threads Member
    "Arabs and Muslims simply cannot run a civilized, first-world country."

    Wrong. Bangladesh, while still a thirdworld country, is rapidly industrializing and has been a Muslim democracy for quite a while. For a while now two WOMEN, believe it or not, have been running the country.

    "Wrong. The Jews' claim to the land goes back to 1200 BC. They were kicked out by Romans, then kicked out by Arabs, then kicked out by Ottoman Turks. "

    IHatemath - The Jews claim it for religious purposes, but really the arabs have lived there for ever. All the Jews who left europe after WW2 were exactly that, EUROPEAN. The majority hailed from Poland or other eastern european countries, and I doubt any can prove that they have ancestors from the middle east. Using this argument, the worlds 1.5 billion christians can say that Israel is where they are from and claim it, and the worlds 1.25 billion muslims can say that saudia arabia is thier homeland and claim it. And on top of that, for the past hundreds of years the true oppressors of the Jews have been Europeans. In the middle ages they used to be persecuted by European countries and the Church, and then, get this, and then the arabs let them stay in thier land and escape european oppression. Then Hitler came along, and the British along with the EUROPEAN jews decided to push the palestinians off the land.

    "until Hamas acknowledges Israel's right to exist."

    honestly, what good will this do? Hamas will still probably send bombers to Israel and claim that they are splinter cells.

    "I feel that Islam in its core is very anti-Zionist and against any other religion as well."

    Islam regards Christians and Jews as fellow people of the book and respects them in that manner. The Palestinians say theyre fighting the Jews over religious land, which is why they say Jews instead of Palestinians, but in truth they are fighting the Israelis, not all of whom are Jewish.
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  • TpeckTpeck - 518 replies72 threads Member
    In order to be a citizen of Israel, don't you have to be Jewish or have Jewish background?
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  • guguruguguru 374 replies33 threads Member
    i didnt think so,there has to be a few christian or muslim israeli citizens, not too sure though.
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  • scorpscorp 932 replies62 threads Member
    "
    IHatemath - The Jews claim it for religious purposes, but really the arabs have lived there for ever."

    Are you nuts?

    a) at all times through out history there have been Jews in Israel.
    b) Israel is the Jewish homeland (see temple mount, the western wall, the cave of the ancestors, and many many many other places that prove that Israel was inhabited by the Jews.
    c) the arabs have not lived there forever. They have lived there since the Jews have been expelled. Whether or not it's right for a people to come back to a homeland they have been forced out from yet still offer equal political rights to the people currently living there. (Arabs can vote etc)
    d) for religious reasons? For what other reasons do you want us to associate with Israel? Oh and yes there are Thousands of jews who can trace ancestery back to Israel. And we do. For centuries we have prayed for the rebuilding of Jerusalem... our official prayers ask for the rebuilding of Jerusalem since the second exile, do you think this Jerusalem is somewhere in Europe?
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  • jpps1jpps1 . 1905 replies85 threads Senior Member
    "In order to be a citizen of Israel, don't you have to be Jewish or have Jewish background?"

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    People should stop posting their opinions about Israel if they think that only Jews can be citizens. No wonder so many posters here are so pro-Palestinian and think they are politically-repressed.

    Of course, I think that in the last six years, it may have gotten much more difficult for Muslims and non-Israeli Arabs to gain citizenship, but being Jewish is by no means a requirement.
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  • TpeckTpeck - 518 replies72 threads Member
    Not Jewish, but of Jewish background/race. Like I remember a lot of Russians would fake being Jewish so they could move to Israel... something like that.
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  • jpps1jpps1 . 1905 replies85 threads Senior Member
    "IHatemath - The Jews claim it for religious purposes, but really the arabs have lived there for ever. All the Jews who left europe after WW2 were exactly that, EUROPEAN. The majority hailed from Poland or other eastern european countries, and I doubt any can prove that they have ancestors from the middle east. Using this argument, the worlds 1.5 billion christians can say that Israel is where they are from and claim it, and the worlds 1.25 billion muslims can say that saudia arabia is thier homeland and claim it. And on top of that, for the past hundreds of years the true oppressors of the Jews have been Europeans. In the middle ages they used to be persecuted by European countries and the Church, and then, get this, and then the arabs let them stay in thier land and escape european oppression. Then Hitler came along, and the British along with the EUROPEAN jews decided to push the palestinians off the land."

    Clearly, you should consult a history book. The Zionist movement began in the mid-late 1800s. Many European Jews (a large chunk from Russia) moved to Israel to work as farmers. So by the time that the modern state of Israel was founded, many Jews had already been there for two generations.

    And what is with this "the EUROPEAN jews decided to push the palestinians off the land" junk? Firstly, the UN approved the creation of the state of Israel. This was not a unilateral act by Britain. Also, it's not like Israel was created and Palestinians were kicked off the land. Political control was handed over to David ben-Gurion and his cabinet. Arabs got to stay in their homes; political change has nothing to do with Arabs being kicked out of their homes. Of course, had their brethren not found it necessary to declare war on Israel minutes after it was founded, maybe Arabs already living in Israel could have gotten along much better. You talk like this is some kind of occupation--EVERY country has people of different races and religions. The fact is that Palestinian Arabs do not want to get along with Israeli Jews.
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  • jpps1jpps1 . 1905 replies85 threads Senior Member
    "Like I remember a lot of Russians would fake being Jewish so they could move to Israel... something like that."

    It's much easier to move there if you're Jewish--in fact, Israeli citizenship is guaranteed to virtually every Jew. As far as I know, citizenship has only been refused to one or two Jews.
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  • guguruguguru 374 replies33 threads Member
    "The fact is that Palestinian Arabs do not want to get along with Israeli Jews."

    And why would they? If the UN agreed to let thousands of arab refugees to come live in america and forced the american people to accept, don't you think we would all be mad too? I know this is a bit of a stretch, but the point remains. If you say that the Jews deserve the land back, then thats the same thing as saying that all the Native Americans deserve thier land back and we should round up whatever Native Americans we have not killed off and put them in power.


    "for a people to come back to a homeland they have been forced out from yet still offer equal political rights to the people currently living there."

    Why should the arabs even look at an offer for equal political rights from people who come onto their homeland?

    "Israel is the Jewish homeland"

    Saudi Arabia is the Muslim homeland, yet that gives me no right to go there and claim the land as my own, nor does it give any right to Jews to claim that land as thier own.

    "Oh and yes there are Thousands of jews who can trace ancestery back to Israel."

    So you're telling me that there are thousands of Jews who have the ability to trace thier lineage back to 1200 BC in Israel?? How??? please enlighten me on this matter, I find this unbelievable. I doubt there are any records that one can use to trace thier ancestry back over 3 millenia.

    "Firstly, the UN approved the creation of the state of Israel."

    Yea, but the majority of the people living there did not and still don't. The majority of them were forced into ghettos, much like the Jews during WWII.


    "Political control was handed over to David ben-Gurion and his cabinet. Arabs got to stay in their homes; political change has nothing to do with Arabs being kicked out of their homes."

    Well, don't you think it would have been a tad bit fairer if they asked the Palestinian leaders at the time to also take some control, since the majority of the people there were Palestinians, not Jews who migrated there from Russia in the 1800's.

    "for religious reasons? For what other reasons do you want us to associate with Israel?"

    This may sound wierd, but physical reasons. If they can say, "Yes, I have the blood data from 1200 BC to prove that my family was from there and the family of all the Jews were from there and that because of that we rightfully and even non-religiously have the right to claim Israel for ourselves.
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  • neverbornneverborn 1831 replies46 threads Senior Member
    The Arabs are the indefensible aggressors there - THEY immediately declared war and attacked, Israel has been besieged since its founding.

    Tpeck: Your subtle anti-Semitism doesn't go unnoticed - "They've been kicked out everywhere? Oh, I wonder why..." *wink wink nudge nudge*
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  • neverbornneverborn 1831 replies46 threads Senior Member
    Oh, and about "What if Hamas recognizes Israel?"

    It's doubtful - they've offered a 10 year truce - a strategic truce that allows them to prepare to destroy Israel completely.
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  • OneThousandFistsOneThousandFists * 144 replies2 threads Junior Member
    There are some people here that are barinwashed from Zionist propaganda. I recommend you guys stay off this thread so that you dont embrace anti-Islamic extremism.
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  • k_twink_twin 1618 replies22 threads Senior Member
    You know, I thought I'd bring a bit of clarity back into this thread. I'm neither Jewish nor Muslim, but I live in an Arab country thats progressing at the rate of knots, and I'm a tad concerned at the complete lack of a balanced viewpoint on either side, whether those pro-Israel or those pro-Palestine.

    I think this thread was created to discuss the issue of Hamas coming to power, and regarding that, I really have mixed views. Not being an avid follower of the politics of the region, I can't comment as to the reasons for their coming to power (although I have read and heard that their charitable work in the setting up of hospitals etc. was a major factor, and the rampant corruption in Fatah was also a cause.) Secondly, you know its rather pointless arguing about whether Israel deserves to exist or not. The fact is that it does, so does Palestine and what we should in reality be discussing is views and opinions on ways to mend conflict, not exacerbate it.

    Its obvious to me, that terrorism is to condemned, thats probably the only thing obvious and clear-cut in this entire debate. The ground-reality is that in Palestine, you have much suffering due to lack of infrastructure, blatant graft and much extremism, while in Israel you also have a constant risk of attack.

    It seems to me, that for from attacking one another over here, perhaps we should all just think for a little while about what changes we'd like to see in the region. Instead of accusing each other of being zionists, terrorists et al, maybe a bit of introspection and informed debate could go a long way.
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  • OneThousandFistsOneThousandFists * 144 replies2 threads Junior Member
    It seems to me, that for from attacking one another over here, perhaps we should all just think for a little while about what changes we'd like to see in the region.

    The only change I like to see is Israel being fully replaced by Palestine.
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  • k_twink_twin 1618 replies22 threads Senior Member
    Well thats the type of attitude I'm talking about. Tis a fact of life that such things aren't going to happen (whether for better or worse is merely academic). What you're advocating would pretty much lead to a World War III and send us back to the stone age. Catapults anyone?
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  • OneThousandFistsOneThousandFists * 144 replies2 threads Junior Member
    Terrorism is a movement. You know what they want. Nobody can stop them, unless their demands are met.
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  • scarletleavyscarletleavy 2359 replies15 threads Senior Member
    Terrorism is a movement. You know what they want. Nobody can stop them, unless their demands are met.

    Not all movements can or will succeed.
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  • OneThousandFistsOneThousandFists * 144 replies2 threads Junior Member
    It was because of the continuous terrorist attacks in Israel, which got the Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza strip. This is just the beginning. In no way am I condoning terrorism, but this is reality. With a president like Bush in power, things are even worse.
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  • scarletleavyscarletleavy 2359 replies15 threads Senior Member
    I sure hope you're not condoning terrorism. But I definitely agree things are not getting better. Too bad world leaders aren't doing the right things, they are too concerned on immediate short term goals or petty domestic problems.

    But I do believe there is a way to end terrorism, although I'm not quite sure what it is.
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  • OneThousandFistsOneThousandFists * 144 replies2 threads Junior Member
    There are two ways:

    1.) Hand over "Israel" to Palestine.
    2.) No more US intervention in the Middle East.
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