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The public university crisis

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Replies to: The public university crisis

  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 2,570 Senior Member
    When does a "cause for concern" become a "crisis".....

    Maybe the mods can modify the title of your thread to "cause for concern, in some cases"? If so, then I'd agree with you.

    The CA UC and CSU system will NOT be increasing fees next year:

    https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/No-tuition-hikes-UC-and-CSU-systems-deliver-12867593.php

    From the article:
    "The happy news for students comes as healthy state revenues have soared at least $3.3 billion beyond what was projected in January — and the cash from April’s tax influx hasn’t even been counted yet, said H.D. Palmer, spokesman for the state Department of Finance."
    "Now there appears to be a growing enthusiasm among state lawmakers for allocating more money to the universities as the Legislature hashes out the state budget for the 2018-19 fiscal year beginning July 1."
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 73,730 Senior Member
    Actual crises would be like these:

    Mount Ida College (private)
    Connecticut community colleges

    Private colleges with D grades in Forbes' financial grades is probably vulnerable to a crisis. Those with C grades may not be that safe either, though probably more has to go badly for them than for those with D grades.

    So it is not like choosing any private college means that all is well in the college's finances.
  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    edited April 2018
    @ucbalumnus that is very true for private colleges further down the list, and also for public schools. The concern is more for the public schools toward the top of the list and there academic prowess slipping due to lack of funding.

    I mean it really comes down to charging 1/3 to 1/2 the going rate for in state students and then simply not make it up via state funding.

    For example, UCB offers a discount of 66% off OOS tuition, it doesn't take the smartest economist to tell you that if the money doesn't come from somewhere else then the product will suffer.
  • existential12existential12 Registered User Posts: 149 Junior Member
    If there is a crisis I'd worry more about the private side than the public side. Privates have to justify families spending 250k+ for an education which isn't getting any cheaper. The fact remains that in many cases one can find a similar education for much, much, cheaper. I'm at a state school whose program in my subject is competitive on a national level, and whose costs is (for me) 1/3 of a private. And this is at a school which is currently undergoing budget cuts. Or as the op seems to insinuate, a complete break down of the social fabric making up my school.
  • Twoin18Twoin18 Registered User Posts: 978 Member
    edited April 2018
    "UC faculty leaders said the results confirm their fears that the university's excellence would decline without greater state investment. The state share of costs per student dropped from $14,690 in 1996 to $7,160 in 2017, according to UC data."

    The UC Regents said that while negotiating with the state for more money. Not exactly a surprising tactic. The UC tuition fees have gone up in the last 20 years to compensate for the loss of state funding. But they've gone up even more at private universities, partly because those colleges have adopted a high tuition, high aid model (whether need or merit based: https://www.wsj.com/articles/prizes-for-everyone-how-colleges-use-scholarships-to-lure-students-1523957400) and partly because of the luxurious facilities at some of those expensive private colleges.

    For many of us the UC model delivers much better overall value. I'm very happy to trade off a few bigger lectures and triple dorm rooms to pay $13K tuition instead of $52K tuition pa. Wasn't it just a week or two ago there was a CC thread with complaints about Californian kids being shut out of the UCs and forced to attend expensive OOS private colleges instead? Also why consider in state tuition a discount off the OOS rate? That's nonsense when most kids are in state and get excellent value for money. And measured by criteria like % of Pell grants, the UCs do an amazing job of educating poor/first gen kids.
  • PortercatPortercat Registered User Posts: 608 Member
    I don't think the escalation in the discount rate can go on forever at many privates.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/private-colleges-dole-out-scholarships-to-boost-enrollment-but-it-isnt-working-1525060860
  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    Again I limited my discussion to the top 200 of so schools in an earlier post.
  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    Just some more info on this issue in a NYT article.

    "Why You Can’t Catch Up"

    "Tier 1 consists of major private research institutions like Yale, Johns Hopkins and New York University. Tier 2 schools are selective private liberal arts colleges like Middlebury and Vassar. Tier 3 are major public research universities, among them most of the University of California system. The remainder — less research intensive and selective, like Middle Tennessee State, Golden Gate University or the for-profit Grand Canyon University — fall into Tier 4."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/why-you-cant-catch-up.html

  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 73,730 Senior Member
    Re: #113

    That is based on the paper at https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2473238 , but does the tiering make sense?

    Does that paper's "tier 1" schools Saint Louis and Syracuse have more prestige than its "tier 2" schools Amherst and Williams? Or does its "tier 2" schools Hampden-Sydney and Sweet Briar have more prestige than its "tier 3" schools Michigan and Virginia? Or do all of these schools have more prestige than Harvey Mudd, which is not listed in any of the tiers and is therefore in "tier 4"?
  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    edited May 2018
    @ucbalumnus Good question for the author, do they make a good case for it? The empirical data is based upon the tiers as determined below, so it does show a difference in income BASED on the tiers the paper uses.

    BTW, I don't think you should assume anything about a college that is not specifically mentioned.

    Here are how the tiers were determined, and it doesn't include EVERY college, so the assumption that Harvey Mudd belongs in tier 4 is baseless. It could be in tier 1/2/3/4.

    "Tier groupings are created in Hersch (2013) and based on a comparison of the 1994 Carnegie
    Classification with Barron’s selectivity categories."

  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    Tier universities from the paper.

    Tier 1
    Private Research I
    Boston University
    Brown University
    California Institute of
    Technology
    Carnegie Mellon
    University
    Case Western Reserve
    University
    Columbia University in the
    City of New York
    Cornell University
    Duke University
    Emory University
    Georgetown University
    Harvard University
    Howard University
    Johns Hopkins University
    Massachusetts Institute of
    Technology
    New York University
    Northwestern University
    Princeton University
    Rockefeller University
    Stanford University
    Tufts University
    University of Chicago
    University of Miami
    University of Pennsylvania
    University of Rochester
    University of Southern
    California
    Vanderbilt University
    Washington University
    Yale University
    Yeshiva University
    Private Research II
    Brandeis University
    Brigham Young University
    George Washington
    University
    Lehigh University
    Northeastern University
    Rensselaer Polytechnic
    Institute
    Rice University
    Saint Louis University
    Syracuse University Main
    Campus
    Tulane University
    University of Notre Dame


    Tier 2
    Private Liberal Arts I
    Agnes Scott College
    Albion College
    Albright College
    Allegheny College
    Alma College
    Amherst College
    Antioch University
    Augustana College (IL)
    Austin College
    Bard College
    Barnard College
    Bates College
    Beloit College
    Bennington College
    Berea College
    Bethany College (WV)
    Birmingham Southern
    College
    Bowdoin College
    Bryn Mawr College
    Bucknell University
    Carleton College
    Central College (IA)
    Centre College
    Chatham College
    Christendom College
    Claremont McKenna
    College
    Coe College
    Colby College
    Colgate University
    College of Saint Benedict
    College of Wooster
    College of the Atlantic
    College of the Holy Cross
    Colorado College
    Concordia College-
    Moorhead
    Connecticut College
    Cornell College
    Davidson College
    DePauw University
    Denison University
    Dickinson College
    Drew University
    Earlham College
    Eckerd College
    Erskine College
    Franklin & Marshall
    College
    Franklin College of
    Indiana
    Furman University
    Georgetown College
    Gettysburg College
    Gordon College (MA)
    Goshen College
    Goucher College
    Grinnell College
    Guilford College
    Gustavus Adolphus
    College
    Hamilton College
    Hamline University
    Hampden-Sydney College
    Hampshire College
    Hanover College
    Hartwick College
    Hastings College
    Haverford College
    Hendrix College
    Hiram College
    Hobart and William Smith
    Colleges
    Hollins College
    Hope College
    Houghton College
    Huntingdon College
    Illinois College
    Illinois Wesleyan
    University
    Judson College (AL)
    Juniata College
    Kalamazoo College
    Kenyon College
    Knox College
    Lafayette College
    Lake Forest College
    Lawrence University
    Lewis and Clark College
    Luther College
    Macalester College
    Manhattanville College
    Marlboro College
    Middlebury College
    Mills College
    Millsaps College
    Monmouth College (IL)
    Moravian College
    Morehouse College
    Mount Holyoke College
    Muhlenberg College
    Nebraska Wesleyan
    University
    Oberlin College
    Occidental College
    Oglethorpe University
    Ohio Wesleyan University
    Pitzer College
    Pomona College
    Presbyterian College
    Providence College
    Radcliffe College
    Randolph-Macon College
    Randolph-Macon
    Woman's College
    Reed College
    Rhodes College
    Ripon College
    Saint John's University
    (MN)
    Saint Olaf College
    Salem College
    Sarah Lawrence College
    Scripps College
    Siena College
    Simon's Rock College of
    Bard
    Skidmore College
    Smith College
    Southwestern University
    Spelman College
    St. Andrews Presbyterian
    College
    St. John's College (MD)
    St. John's College (NM)
    St. Lawrence University
    Swarthmore College
    Sweet Briar College
    Thomas Aquinas College
    Transylvania University
    Trinity College (CT)
    Union College (NY)
    University of Dallas
    University of Judaism
    University of Puget Sound
    University of the South
    Ursinus College
    Vassar College
    Virginia Wesleyan College
    Wabash College
    Wartburg College
    Washington College
    Washington and Jefferson
    College
    Washington and Lee
    University
    Wellesley College
    Wells College
    Wesleyan College
    Wesleyan University
    Western Maryland College
    Westminster College (MO)
    Westminster College (PA)
    Westmont College
    Wheaton College (IL)
    Wheaton College (MA)
    Whitman College
    Whittier College
    Willamette University
    William Jewell College
    Williams College
    Wittenberg University
    Wofford College

    Tier 3
    Public Research I
    Arizona State University
    Colorado State University
    Florida State University
    Georgia Institute of
    Technology
    Indiana University at
    Bloomington
    Iowa State University
    Louisiana State University
    and Agricultural and
    Mechanical College
    Michigan State University
    New Mexico State
    University Main Campus
    North Carolina State
    University
    Ohio State University,
    Main Campus, The
    Oregon State University
    Pennsylvania State
    University Main Campus
    Purdue University Main
    Campus
    Rutgers the State
    University of New Jersey
    New Brunswick Campus
    State University of New
    York at Buffalo
    State University of New
    York at Stony Brook
    Temple University
    Texas A & M University
    University of Alabama at
    Birmingham
    University of Arizona
    University of California-
    Berkeley
    University of California-
    Davis
    University of California-
    Irvine
    University of California-
    Los Angeles
    University of California-
    San Diego
    University of California-
    San Francisco
    University of California-
    Santa Barbara
    University of Cincinnati
    Main Campus
    University of Colorado at
    Boulder
    University of Connecticut
    University of Florida
    University of Georgia
    University of Hawaii at
    Manoa
    University of Illinois at
    Chicago
    University of Illinois at
    Urbana-Champaign
    University of Iowa
    University of Kansas Main
    Campus
    University of Kentucky
    University of Maryland
    College Park
    University of
    Massachusetts at Amherst
    University of Michigan-
    Ann Arbor
    University of Minnesota-
    Twin Cities
    University of Missouri-
    Columbia
    University of Nebraska-
    Lincoln
    University of New Mexico
    Main Campus
    University of North
    Carolina at Chapel Hill
    University of Pittsburgh,
    Pittsburgh Campus
    University of Tennessee,
    Knoxville
    University of Texas at
    Austin
    University of Utah
    University of Virginia
    University of Washington
    University of Wisconsin-
    Madison
    Utah State University
    Virginia Commonwealth
    University
    Virginia Polytechnic
    Institute and State
    University
    Wayne State University
    West Virginia University
  • Sue22Sue22 Registered User Posts: 5,798 Senior Member
    That seems like a lazy way of creating tiers. What's the point of segmenting colleges and universities into tiers if what you really mean is "1) Private universities, 2) private LACs and 3) public universities"? It would have made more sense to divide them by test scores or admissions rates. Still lazy, but at least they wouldn't be lumping Christendom College (96% acceptance rate) with places like Amherst and Pomona and ahead of public universities with acceptance rates in the teens.
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 73,730 Senior Member
    CU123 wrote:
    Here are how the tiers were determined, and it doesn't include EVERY college, so the assumption that Harvey Mudd belongs in tier 4 is baseless. It could be in tier 1/2/3/4.

    "Tier 4" was supposed to be all schools other than those named in "Tier 1, 2, 3". Since Harvey Mudd was not named in "Tier 1, 2, 3", it was in "Tier 4".
  • CU123CU123 Registered User Posts: 2,831 Senior Member
    Ok then, Harvey Mudd is Tier 4. The point of the matter is that the empirical data suggests that these tiers have significantly different outcomes.
  • thomas4881thomas4881 Registered User Posts: 165 Junior Member
    It's not worth the money for a degree that won't get you a job.
This discussion has been closed.