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The most prestigious schools to the sight of top professionals schools:

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Replies to: The most prestigious schools to the sight of top professionals schools:

  • bluebayoubluebayou Registered User Posts: 24,485 Senior Member
    RML:

    small nits....

    H only has about 1800 grads per year.

    H was embarrassed by the Globe article 10+ years ago about its Latin Honors, so it has reduced those that receive such honors. The students haven't changed, just the definition of who is eligible, bringing H more in line with the other Ivies.

    Cal's mean gpa is a 3.3, which is not much lower than H (3.45). With the exception of Engineering (and Philosophy) Cal's days of grade brutality are long-gone,but yes it is still difficult.

    carry-on


    PreLaw can still be kinda tough depending on one's major. Premed should not be that bad for bio-sci majors. (sakky?) Of course, compare those 35% physical science A's with the mean grade of an A- at Brown and Yale.
    “Another surprising fact is that philosophy is among the departments where getting an ‘A’ is still a very difficult feat,” Mancosu added. He cites 2008-2010 data showing that, on average, only 36 percent of students received an ‘A’ in a philosophy class, compared to 34 percent in the mathematical and physical sciences, 47 percent in social sciences, 62 percent in biological sciences and 63 percent in the arts and humanities as a whole, of which philosophy is part.

    http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/05/10/philosopher-majors/


    btw: I'm not insisting on anything...just stating a fact. UC advising stinks in comparison to most private schools. I've readily admitted that fact for years, and is one big reason why I have been suggesting to OOS'ers to look elsewhere. (According to BlueDevilMike, Stanford's advising is not very good either, at least for premed.) And the other fact is that Cal's Career Services has no way to track those that apply to grad/professional school-- No Way. If you care to make conclusions based on a small collection of data points be my guest. Personally, I remember a term from a computer class years ago: GIGO.
  • PeaPea Registered User Posts: 2,386 Senior Member
    A 3.8 from Harvard or Caltech or MIT or Princeton carries more weight than a 3.8 from Berkeley or Duke or Brown or Michigan or Cornell or UCLA.

    Actually a 3.8 from Princeton carries much more weight than a 3.8 from Harvard. Harvard has rampant grade inflation and Princeton, not so much. Each school has its own degree of grade inflation and the post-graduate schools all know what the different scales are.

    A 3.8 from Berkeley or UCLA or Michigan carries a great deal of weight because it is so hard to get.
  • lesdiablesbleuslesdiablesbleus Registered User Posts: 746 Member
    RML wrote:
    A 3.8 from Harvard or Caltech or MIT or Princeton carries more weight than a 3.8 from Berkeley or Duke or Brown or Michigan or Cornell or UCLA. School prestige is the reason behind this very cruel, very secretly practiced, admission policy. So there exists a school prestige which some CC posters are denying. That biases are even practiced in many companies. HYPSMC grads are favored over grads from other schools.
    I'm almost 100% sure that law school or med school adcoms don't weigh a 3.8 from Harvard or Princeton more than a 3.8 from Brown or Duke except maybe at HLS for Harvard College grads. Do you have proof or is this another one of your crazy theories? I'm not even sure law school or med school adcoms differentiate between Michigan State and Harvard.
    Pea wrote:
    Actually a 3.8 from Princeton carries much more weight than a 3.8 from Harvard. Harvard has rampant grade inflation and Princeton, not so much. Each school has its own degree of grade inflation and the post-graduate schools all know what the different scales are.
    I'm sure Princetonians would like to believe this but its simply not true. Law school and med school adcoms don't have time to nitpick between differences in grading scales at every university. Once you hit a certain level of academic excellence and prestige, you're not going to get a bump over a peer university.

    Princeton's grading policy partially explains its relatively poor showing compared to its private peers at professional school placement as shown in this thread. Princeton seems about as represented as Dartmouth and Brown rather than Harvard and Yale.
  • bluebayoubluebayou Registered User Posts: 24,485 Senior Member
    RML;

    what part of the link for 2008-2010 data don't you understand. A Cal study clearly shows that 63% of all grades in the humanities are an 'A'. I'm not sure where you took Stats, but those numbers tell me that well over half of the students in those subjects graduate with at least a 3.7 (which is an A- at Cal). Now that doesn't say one doesn't have to work hard, but still the facts are the facts. And a 3.7 + high LSAT is about all one needs to be competitive for Harvard Law.

    I don't have any opinion on your main opinion (HYPMSC viewed more highly), I'm just trying to correct the facts for others to see. But if your opinion is true, doesn't that indicate that Cal's hume grades are not viewed as rigorous?

    And do you really believe that a 3.3 from HYP will get you into YLS or SLS, unhooked?
  • tk21769tk21769 Registered User Posts: 9,916 Senior Member
    A 3.8 from Harvard or Caltech or MIT or Princeton carries more weight than a 3.8 from Berkeley or Duke or Brown or Michigan or Cornell or UCLA.

    How much more weight? For applicants with equally high GPAs and equally high scores, exactly how much higher is the admit rate for the HPCM applicants than it is for the BDDMCU applicants? Where is the data?
  • bluebayoubluebayou Registered User Posts: 24,485 Senior Member
    To earn a 3.8 from Cal is almost an impossible thing to do. But it's still possible. It's just that, it won't be served to you on a silver platter. You have to work your a$$ very, very hard, or harder than you would when you're in an Ivy League School. For instance, no one has actually earned it at Haas this year. And Haas graduates 350 students every year.

    Umm, according to the stats published by Haas, the mean gpa of those accepted into the program is a 3.7. 20% have a 3.95+! (That A- in Subject A can be gpa killer.) Yes, those grades are mostly earned in L&S, but still, Haas undergrads have an A- average halfway through college.

    Class Profile, Undergraduate Program - Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley
  • tk21769tk21769 Registered User Posts: 9,916 Senior Member
    ^ The average Harvard student enters college with somewhat higher test scores and leaves with much less debt than the average Duke student. So the average Harvard student may be better able to afford law school, and be more likely to get high LSAT scores, than the average Duke student. I'm just speculating. I'd want to see comparative data on applications, acceptances, GPA and LSAT scores before suggesting that any professional school strongly favors applicants from one college over equally qualified students from another.
  • bluebayoubluebayou Registered User Posts: 24,485 Senior Member
    RML:

    This is what I posted earlier. What needs clarification?

    "A Cal study clearly shows that 63% of all grades in the humanities are an 'A'."

    And no, I did not even mean to infer that 63% of humanities majors graduate with an A average. Cal requires distributives, so there is plenty of opportunity to take classes in less grade-inflated departments.

    btw: that 63% is probably a LOT higher in those majors that end in 'Studies.' :rolleyes:
  • sakkysakky - Posts: 14,759 Senior Member
    He cites 2008-2010 data showing that, on average, only 36 percent of students received an ‘A’ in a philosophy class, compared to 34 percent in the mathematical and physical sciences, 47 percent in social sciences, 62 percent in biological sciences and 63 percent in the arts and humanities as a whole, of which philosophy is part.

    And that's precisely the sort of thing that needs to change immediately. I've always been far more interested in intra-school, as opposed to inter-school grade inflation. Exactly why do different majors in the same school use such different grading scales? I don't think anybody seriously believes that arts/humanities students are far smarter and harder working than the math/physical-science/engineering students and hence deserve far higher grades; if anything, the opposite is true. Hence, if nearly 2/3 of all grades in the arts and humanities sans philosophy are A's, then 2/3 of all grades in math/physical-sciences/engineering courses should also be A's. Otherwise, the humanities/arts should be prohibited from giving out so many A's. What's fair is fair.
  • bluebayoubluebayou Registered User Posts: 24,485 Senior Member
    sakky (or anyone else):

    Ever seen similar data for other top colleges? For example, is the grade distribution at Cornell a lot different, or does the Big Red also limit the number of A's in the physical sciences to ~35%, while the prelaw types in hume or IR can cruise with a ~70% A average?

    Since Brown has a mean gpa of 3.6+, followed closely by Yale at 3.55, they obviously award a bunch of A's in the physical sciences. But what about others?
  • sakkysakky - Posts: 14,759 Senior Member
    I agree that intraschool grade inflation is a nationwide - indeed perhaps global problem. I think it would be rare to find any school in the nation, and perhaps the world, where engineering/math/physical-sciences are considered the 'creampuff' majors that serve as refuge shelters for students who aren't talented or diligent enough to complete another major.
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