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Is it true that there is a 40-50% acceptance rate for 2400ers?

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Replies to: Is it true that there is a 40-50% acceptance rate for 2400ers?

  • ewhoewho Registered User Posts: 1,431 Senior Member
    H - deferred. I guess she should apply P for early.
    That is probably the problem. H thought that she was more likely to be accepted by P, since she was in the backyard of P, and P would think that she did not apply to P early, and hence she did not want to come.
  • HarvardParentHarvardParent Registered User Posts: 184 Junior Member
    That could be but Harvard does not practice defensive admission. They are pretty confident that applicant will matriculate if admitted. Princeton seems to be more sensitive on this aspect and there as a study back in 2006 that showed they use a defensive strategy in their admission process.
  • 2yuexue2yuexue Registered User Posts: 102 Junior Member
    Whatever the reasons might be, my heart goes for you and your daughter. Trust me, I understand every bit of you must have been feeling. Williams is a fine place and your daughter will be fine there.
  • required3required3 Registered User Posts: 50 Junior Member
    Thanks! :)
  • 2yuexue2yuexue Registered User Posts: 102 Junior Member
    We are in a very similar situation. I am so proud the way my son handled the situation. He came to me and said "mom, thanks for all the supports you have given me over the years. Don't worry too much. I'd be fine in any school I go to." I am glad to see that he is not focusing on the "why" for the past but focusing more on the "How" for the future. What else can a mother ask?

    My son is wait-listed for Harvard. We all know that the chance for him to get off the list is very small, but I am just hoping that Harvard can take one more look on him and find the quality he gets to offer from different perspectives. Hopefully, his recent presidential scholar semifinalist status will help him stand out somewhat.
  • required3required3 Registered User Posts: 50 Junior Member
    You have a great son!! The outs to be a presidential scholar semifinalist is definitely smaller than to be a harvarder (my daughter was a candidate, but not a semifinalist). I truely believe he will success anywhere, meanwhile, I feel it's kind of unfair to kids to be a college educated chinese parent. The three kids in our school admitted by one or multiple HPYMS are in one of this case, Asian but low income, Chinese but parent not college graduted yet, or one parent is not Asian.

    Anyway, best wish to you, and hope miracle happens.
  • 2yuexue2yuexue Registered User Posts: 102 Junior Member
    Thanks. Your daughter has a very impressive resume.

    Sometimes, I feel sorry for the kids from a family of highly educated parents. Most of them do have high bars for themselves for obvious reasons. However, they are kids after all. They really deserve to have some time to do kids' stuff that other kids do. Yet, society punishes them at the very first step they are going to enter it. Think about it, what have they done wrong? The college can punish us parents by not giving the kids any financial aid. Isn't that enough? Anyhow, thanks god that my son seems not being bothered as much. He is at the all state orchestra enjoying himself with classical musics of his favorite composer.
  • ewhoewho Registered User Posts: 1,431 Senior Member
    That could be but Harvard does not practice defensive admission. They are pretty confident that applicant will matriculate if admitted.
    I would not speak for Harvard for this, since one out of four H admits goes somewhere else.
    I feel it's kind of unfair to kids to be a college educated chinese parent. The three kids in our school admitted by one or multiple HPYMS are in one of this case, Asian but low income, Chinese but parent not college graduted yet, or one parent is not Asian.
    I would not generalize this neither. Both of us had 6 college degrees, and our son got in two of HYPSM.
  • lcedcoffeeelcedcoffeee Registered User Posts: 113 Junior Member
    Although I am only a high school student and a recent Harvard class of 2016 admit, I cannot help but find some bias in some of the above claims. As an upper-middle class Chinese American male applicant from an over-represented social-geographic area (San Francisco Bay Area), I cannot say that schools like HYPSM discriminate against any particular demographic group, nor do they hold perfect test scores against Asians (I am one of those unfortunate souls who has perfect SAT scores...). Like HarvardParent said, there is an overwhelming number of subjective factors that come into play, such as recommendation letters and essays, which is why many college counseling services stress the importance of establishing close connections with school administration and teachers. Another often-overlooked factor is the interview, where your personality really shows. I did not get an alumni interview for Harvard and finally got a phone interview with an admissions officer about 2 weeks before decisions were to be released; I made sure to emphasize my personality and character that would make me a great fit for Harvard. In retrospect, I can say that my waitlist at MIT was due to a rather lackluster interview and "overly polished" essays that made me sound a bit fake. So for all the parents upset about HYPSM using erratic admissions policies, I understand your frustration (my parents share many of your feelings) but ultimately, it comes down to the college's perception of "fit" between an applicant and the student body at large. Needless to say, students who have parents so concerned about their college future certainly deserve to go to one of these schools, but the question can easily go the other way: Do these few colleges deserve these students?
  • ZepHeadZepHead Registered User Posts: 67 Junior Member
    The difference between a 2300 and 2400 is marginal in terms of its correlation to a student's overall academic and extracurricular performance.
    I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a huge difference between 2300 and 2400.
  • required3required3 Registered User Posts: 50 Junior Member
    To ewho:

    First congrats! You have even better son!
    Second, I shouldn't give generalized assumptions based on few observed cases. I do have quite a lot Chinese college educated friends having son/daughters studying or graduated from HPYMS.
    Third, back to the topic, to me 2400 seems not linked much with acceptance rate. For us, it's 0% :)
  • siserunesiserune Registered User Posts: 1,625 Senior Member
    The difference between a 2300 and 2400 is marginal in terms of its correlation to a student's overall academic and extracurricular performance.

    I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a huge difference between 2300 and 2400

    There is a big difference between one data point (the SAT score) that incorporates a certain amount of random noise, and the entire set of tests and academic/cognitive indicators. As an example, in the case of the Chinese-American female whose results were summarized above, the 2400 SAT was the high point and all the other indicators were either specifically lower (770 on the physics test is the 85th percentile), or much less selective. Top grades in high school, or an 800 on the Chinese subject test which is attained by 3000 students per year and just a certificate of knowing the language without having learned it in high school, or the 800 on the math subject test that is attained by 15000 students per year, are reflections of being in the top 20000 students, not the top thousand. When people point to a 2400 SAT but *not* a higher credential, such as math competition results, and other results are lower than the 2400, it is not necessarily any better than a 2300.

    A large population of 2400 scorers is more capable than one with an average score of 2300, though one has to downgrade the estimate at 2400 to take into account of perfectionism, retaking, test prep, incentives to hit the absolute top, and other factors.
  • required3required3 Registered User Posts: 50 Junior Member
    I don't think it's meaningful to talk the chinese girl scores any more. Just waste a few more minutes. All the colleges only need two SATII scores, she didn't send her physics SAT subjects to anywhere. She took physics AP class on her freshmen year, and took the physics subjects after that, she knew that's not good score and could get 800 if retook, but she decided took Math II and Liturature in Jonior year, and all the SAT scores were one sit and first sit.

    I believe if SAT tests can be redesigned so that it has same difficult, but for some students, they can archive higher score than 2400 in one sit, she should be one of them, but is that really matter?
  • siserunesiserune Registered User Posts: 1,625 Senior Member
    I don't think it's meaningful to talk the chinese girl scores any more. Just waste a few more minutes.

    Because the scores were posted as an example of "discrimination", it is quite meaningful, especially for some of the Asian parents here, to see some statistics on how common such scores are. Somebody with that record generally does not get into MIT or Harvard EA without non-academic preferences such as first generation, athlete, legacy etc. For the rest of your experience, HYPS regular application, a 1-in-3 chance of admission at each school is about 7 times the regular admission rate (in odds-ratio terms, which is the correct way to measure the effect, ) but carries a 20 percent chance of rejection everywhere.

    All the colleges only need two SATII scores, she didn't send her physics SAT subjects to anywhere.

    The math, Chinese and (depending on other material such as APs) the Literature tests are redundant and almost meaningless given the rest of the record. Everything that you presented says "smart and highly advantaged applicant, who used her ability and resources to achieve high results on all basic academic measures (grades, tests, AP exams) and nothing uncommon beyond that".

    She took physics AP class on her freshmen year,

    Physics AP in grade 9 or even 10 indicates either enormous ability (see below), or *huge* preparation advantages from elementary school, such as years of weekend schools and summer academic programs, self-study of calculus by grade 8 or 9, and parents (often with one or two PhD's or engineering degrees) who promote and finance such outcomes. Early SAT taking and "talent testing", competition for a spot at CTY or the gifted program or the magnet school, immigrant weekend activities, you know the story.

    I believe if SAT tests can be redesigned so that it has same difficult, but for some students, they can archive higher score than 2400 in one sit, she should be one of them, but is that really matter?

    For evaluation of the record (and the discrimination claim) it is precisely what matters. You are suggesting that the 2400 that was posted is in effect a "low 2410-2500" instead of a "high 2300-2400" or a "true 2100-2200 given the same academic ability but fewer academic advantages growing up".

    A student in the top 300 of national testing ability who succeeds in AP physics in grade 9 should be able to reach physics olympiad semifinalist (if AP physics B), or physics olympiad top 24 (if AP physics C). The number of AP Physics C [E&M] exam takers in grade 11, 10, 9 corresponds closely to the number of physics olympiad exam takers, semifinalists, top 24 or IPhO traveling team. Or for those not as interested in more physics, this kind of ability would manifest as a high AMC score (120+) or AIME (6+) or USAMO qualifier. Or something on the other national olympiads. Or Presidential scholar semifinalist. Or Intel semifinalist, or *something* at a national level of eliteness, or something seriously impressive.

    The fact that nothing remotely like that is on the resume you described, suggests the familiar pattern of a 2-3 year head start in grade school being sliced to a much smaller advantage in high school to little-or-no advantage in college. Those math competition kids from elementary school contests, CTY early-SAT takers, and tiger prodigies from high school science contests simply do not perform nearly as well (as a group) in college on the Putnam competition, NSF graduate fellowships, Hertz science graduate fellowships, independent research, valedictorian awards, or other high level measures. This is called academic underperformance and it is found in statistical studies that track Asian students in college (e.g., Espenshade-Chung-Radford, or Rothstein's study of UC Berkeley grades). It is silly to expect that the high school credentials can be cashed in at face value at the time of admission when a record of that type is not predictive of later results.
  • required3required3 Registered User Posts: 50 Junior Member
    Thanks for your tremendous inputs! I got your point. I felt "discrimination" by comparing three cases in her school. But as your pointed out, she is just a common or academic underperformance applicatant if we look at overall, the rejection from any school is very expected. She can only be a the denominator for the acceptance rate for 2400ers.

    Anyway, I have another daughter (10 grade) and a son (5 grade), sooner or later, they will be another college applicatant, hopefully, they can make themself more "fit" not necessary HPYMS, but the best college to them.
This discussion has been closed.