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Is it true that there is a 40-50% acceptance rate for 2400ers?

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Replies to: Is it true that there is a 40-50% acceptance rate for 2400ers?

  • ewhoewho 1386 replies54 threads Senior Member
    Or for those not as interested in more physics, this kind of ability would manifest as a high AMC score (120+) or AIME (6+) or USAMO qualifier.
    Hopefully that you do realize what this means. In 2011, there were 152 girls achieved a 2400 in the nation, and for a girl to achieve a 6 on AIME, she needs to be top 20 in her class in the nation. Are you suggesting that as a Chinese girl, she has to be a very top student in the nation to get into HYPSM?

    I helped two kids get into Harvard early this year. One of them was like REQUIRED3's daughter, without a perfect SAT though. HYPSM's admission was a complete crapshoot.
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    I think it's more meaningful to look at the total number of 2400s and the number of scores of 6+ on the AIME regardless of gender. Also way more than 20 girls in the US per high school class get 6+ on the AIME. 177 girls in the US got 6+ on the AIME this year.
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  • ewhoewho 1386 replies54 threads Senior Member
    ^, HYPSM accept 50/50, so it is meaningful to separate boys from girls. Since you are on this, can you tell me how many girls for each grade? You can not lump sum them together.
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  • ypcccuypcccu 44 replies6 threads Junior Member
    @required3
    My heart goes out to you.I feel terrible to hear that and feel the pain you must have gone through these days.
    Here in USA it's not just the student who works hard all these years but it's also the parent's who work harder what with the running around and jugling betw work,kid classes,sports,SAT prep and at the same time running the house and instilling the right values in ones child,religious and others.
    For each parent the end of all this hard work is to see their child get into the best of best.
    And by some stroke of bad luck this does happen to a few of them each year.
    I know it's easy to say but I believe firmly that God has set a way for each one of us and we shall follow it.That being said please do move on as your child does have a superb college to go to coming fall.
    Tell her to move on with a smile and feel proud of what she has accomplished so far and will accomplish further.The world does not end here.Rather the world begins from this moment onwards.You take care.
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  • ewhoewho 1386 replies54 threads Senior Member
    Actually there were 203 females achieved 6+ (>=7). 81 of them from AIME I and 122 from AIME II. I assume that most of them were from 10th, 11th, and 12th grades. So, on average, there should be 203/3 = 68 students per class in the nation who can get a 7 or above. Now how many of those are overlapping with those who get a 2400 on SAT?

    We are talking about half of roughly 10000 (minus cross-admits) being accepted by HYPSM each year. And the Chinese girls have to be in the this range to be accepted?
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  • lcedcoffeeelcedcoffeee 113 replies0 threads Junior Member
    I find it interesting that there is such an emphasis on math competitions. I would say roughly half of the Harvard class are not STEM majors, and a good percentage of the science/mathy ones have not even heard of the AMC competition series. From what I know, "Chinese girls" have more than a plethora of ways to get in, including excellence in music, outstanding school leadership, and creative writing. There is, of course, the issue of selecting high school awards and extracurriculars pertaining to your intended major in college. I can only say that a couple of my ISEF, Intel STS, and Siemens friends who won with biology/bioinformatics projects realized that these fields were not fun for them, so they applied as economics or math majors. I can also mention my friend heading into comparative literature who was an active member on our Science Bowl team and participated in AMC12, USAPhO, and USABO.
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  • dascholardascholar 58 replies1 threads Junior Member
    Here's my take on the original question.

    Becoming a Presidential Scholar Semifinalist is a rare feat (573 in 2012) but not as rare as achieving a perfect 2400 on the SAT (384 out of 1,647,123 test takers in 2011), and definitely not as rare as becoming a Presidential Scholar Finalist (about 141 each year). To the original question, it is possible that a high percentage of students who score a perfect 2400 are admitted to Harvard, but not simply for their SAT scores.

    Everyone assumes that a high SAT score is the gold standard to meet in college admissions to elite schools, but this is wrong. Why? A 2400, 2300, or 2200 SAT score does not alone indicate extraordinary or special academic or creative talent or achievement. On the other hand, a 2100, 2000, 1900, or 1800 SAT score does not necessarily indicate a lack of extraordinary or special academic or creative talent or achievement. In fact, Harvard states on its admissions website that “the majority of students admitted to the College represent a range of scores from roughly 600 to 800 on each section of the SAT Reasoning Test as well as on the SAT Subject Tests.” (See Harvard College Admissions § Applying: Frequently Asked Questions.)

    For one, as it pertains to high scorers, many of these students achieve their lofty SAT scores after more than one attempt. And two, there are students with lower SAT scores who communicate in more convincing ways how special or extraordinary they are. Take for example the applicant who scores 2400 on the SAT and 800 on the Math Level 2 Subject Test. This student appears to show great potential as a mathematician. However, what if he or she is competing against an applicant who has only scored 2100 on the SAT and 750 on the Math Level 2 exam but has published a major paper on topology that impresses a math professor at Harvard? (Harvard faculty members participate in the admissions process, you know?) Usually, the applicant with the impressive research paper will usually get the nod over the kid with the perfect College Board scores.

    Certainly, Harvard finds outstanding athletes, future mathematicians, scientists, engineers, artists, and scholars and technocrats in a plethora of fields with outstanding SAT scores. But these are the students who have persuasively communicated their specialness apart from their SAT scores.

    This, folks, is the reality of college admissions at Harvard and schools like it. So do not depend solely on your SAT scores or your grades, for that matter, to prove how special you are if you want to get into Harvard.
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    I would be absolutely shocked if anyone published a major paper on topology in high school and scored a 750 on the SAT math II subject test. I would imagine the number of high school students publishing major papers in subjects like topology is so minimal that they can be effectively ignored in this discussion as well.
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  • ewhoewho 1386 replies54 threads Senior Member
    ^ agreed 100%. it is like an airplane pilot can not drive a car, unless it is done by his/her parents. The person has to make 10/50 questions wrong on those simple precalc problems.
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  • dascholardascholar 58 replies1 threads Junior Member
    Come on! My major point was never about topology. Although a few geniuses come out of high school with an understanding of topology, the point is that they will gain admissions because of that understanding, not because of their SAT scores. Likewise, it is possible and necessary to convince an elite school like Harvard that you are special or extraordinary despite your perfect or imperfect SAT scores. You can do this with research papers, teacher recommendations, nationally recognized programs, competitions and awards, and essays that tell your story in a captivating way. Your SAT scores and grades only get you inside to make your case for extraordinariness or specialness to a school like Harvard.

    You should know that one of my heroes, Richard Feynman, revealed that he received an above average but mortal 125 IQ score. His total SAT score, therefore, would not have been perfect. But he demonstrated his magnificent mathematical ability in convincing and multiple ways. That is why MIT admitted him, not because of his IQ score.

    Oh yes, my major point is very relevant to this discussion!
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    I'm not disagreeing with most of your post but that paragraph definitely introduces a strawman. It's totally possible that Harvard would chose an applicant with something like a 2200 SAT (800M/700CR/700W) with other impressive math credentials over a 2400. But the idea that there are very strong math applicants with poor math test scores particularly on the math II subject test seems unlikely although it's very possible they could weak scores on the other sections. A prominent physicist who specializes in intelligence research suspects that this was the case for Feynman A Polymath Physicist On Richard Feynman's "Low" IQ And Finding Another Einstein | Psychology Today.

    Another thing to consider is that number of applicants nationwide with such credentials is much smaller than Harvard's entering class so there is still plenty of room for ordinary applicants as well.
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  • dascholardascholar 58 replies1 threads Junior Member
    But just understand that about half of the perfect SAT Math scorers did so on the second or third time around and that some of the 750, 760, or 780 scorers never bothered taking the SAT a second time. The geniuses are the ones who took it once without prepping for it, and they are few in number.
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  • HarvardParentHarvardParent 181 replies3 threads Junior Member
    For those clamoring the rarity of 2400 SAT scores, the simple reality is that there is a significant degree of randomness in determining the score by curving. For example, a 800 in the reading section could mean one wrong answer for one testing date and at other times, one may only get 780 even all answers are correct. Adcom all know this and that is why high 2300 scores are treated exactly the same as 2400.
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  • ZepHeadZepHead 67 replies0 threads Junior Member
    On the other hand, a 2100, 2000, 1900, or 1800 SAT score does not necessarily indicate a lack of extraordinary or special academic or creative talent or achievement.
    I don't think that Harvard accepts students with an SAT score less than 2100.
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    I'm pretty sure getting all the answers correct will get you an 800 regardless of the curve. I'm sure there are a very small number of students with sub 2100 SAT scores and the vast majority of those are hooked in some way.
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  • dascholardascholar 58 replies1 threads Junior Member
    If to some of you I appear to be knowledgeable about college admissions, it is because I am an experienced college admissions counselor. I have helped a number of incredible kids get into great schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Dartmouth, etc., and most of them scored below 2100 on the SAT. And no, they were not all URMS or athletes! Hear me, just as long as you can prove that you have special or extraordinary abilities or talents and that your SAT scores fall within a certain threshold (for Harvard that's 600 to 800 on each section of the SAT and within the same range on the Subject Tests), you have a shot at admissions! The SAT is not the gold standard that you think it is. It opens the door for consideration, but you must make a convincing case of your admissiblity apart from your SAT scores once you are in the door!
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    It is true that some students with SAT scores less than 2100 get into HYPSM. Some are even unhooked. However, as dascholar said you better have "special or extraordinary abilities or talents". An example of this is this year someone http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/14021211-post51.html got into MIT as an international with a 1890 (540CR, 800M, 550W) SAT. However, the guy also had several IMO medals and IOI gold medal in addition to various extremely prestigious sounding awards from his country.
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  • gibbygibby 10530 replies246 threads Senior Member
    If you have a 2400 SAT, you still need something special or extraordinary if you are going to make the 5.8% cut. For example, last year I know two students accepted to Harvard:

    Student 1: SAT 2400, Intel Finalist, top violin player who performed several times at Carnegie Hall.
    Student 2: SAT 2400, US Math Olympiad Winner, co-wrote a math paper with an MIT professor during high school.

    When you have a 2400 SAT, Harvard is still looking for something extra special!
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  • DoNotUseRealNameDoNotUseRealName 17 replies3 threads New Member
    Looking at the title I thought you meant the acceptance rate of the Class of 2400 would be 40-50%...

    But that also means that 50-60% of those who got 2400 in the test got rejected, no? ;)
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  • UMTYMP studentUMTYMP student 935 replies14 threads Member
    or waitlisted but yes most 2400s do not get in.
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