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Hmmm. A dilemma many bs/md applicants are going through?

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Replies to: Hmmm. A dilemma many bs/md applicants are going through?

  • MD2B2012MD2B2012 Registered User Posts: 146 Junior Member
    fianchetto wrote:
    MD2B, precisely because im so "burned out from high school" that I want to take the BS/MD route. I don't want to repeat another high school experience, ie go nag ur recommenders, worry about grades, study for standardized tests, do a billion ECs, etc.

    Well, part of being burned out from high school is the fact that you have 7 classes a day (and by senior year it's not unusual for many seniors to have 7 AP classes), that meet everyday for the entire year (unlike college where this is not the case at all), or if your school has block scheduling you have even more classes. On top of this, you have to complete a gigantic amount of ECs with leadership positions and healthcare experiences now, in order to even have a viable application for a BS/MD program -- so this leads to much of the burnout as you're applying for a special program of 2 things at once - one that gives you admission to the undergrad as well as the medical school at the same time.

    Depending on the specific Bachelor/MD program, esp. the ones that are compressed, you will be burned out EVEN MORE than you would have been in the 4+4 route,as you have to fit an entire undergrad education and requirements in less time. If you look at the attrition rates of some of the Bachelor/MD programs you'll see that. I would say the ones in doctor2b's list are obviously the exception and are in fact a good deal.

    Regardless of whether you do 4+4 or a BS/MD program, you WILL still have to go through the same rigamarole of "go nag ur recommenders, worry about grades, study for standardized tests, do a billion ECs, etc," except this time for the residency match: getting letters of recommendation from attending physicians (who are going to be even busier than college professors), worrying about grades (depending on the grading system of your medical school to get into AOA Honor Society), studying for standardized tests (USMLE Step 1 and 2), and extracurricular activities.

    The only difference is with the Bachelor/MD program you are locked at the medical school of the program, and all it's opportunities, or great lack of them, from the very beginning as an 18 year old when you may not yet know the intricacies of what qualities you want in a medical school.

    So even if you do a Bachelor/MD program, you still will have to go through the same sequence of events. You will not be able to avoid it. You're just putting off one thing (essentially skipping the MCAT and getting a conditional guarantee) and jumping into a much bigger thing (the entire residency match process which determines your specialty).
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    @ fianchetto
    for the majority of the good programs
    you still have to worry about your grades and sometimes even do well on the MCAT
    just because you get into one of these programs does not necessarily guarantee you entrance.

    you have to keep up your GPA. for virtually all programs. MCAT is required for some
    all you miss out on is "nagging the recommenders" and "billion ECs"

    but honestly. if you love science or the medical field. the ec's should come naturally out of curiosity and interest

    as for the recommendations. do well in school and participate in class discussion and recommendations should come piling through your door.

    so overall. i don't think it really matters whether or not you get into a BS/MD program.
    but it is pretty nice getting guaranteed entrance into a medical school. :P
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    did not see those two comments on the second page XD
    im kinda new at this

    but yeah i basically reiterated what MD2B2012 said..sorta
  • MD2B2012MD2B2012 Registered User Posts: 146 Junior Member
    A perfect example of what I'm talking about is the NEOUCOM BS/MD program which is an accelerated program of six years at a relatively low tier to, at the most, middle tier medical school.

    For the medical school portion, for 2009-2010, in-state tuition is $30,599 and Out-of-state tuition is $59,212: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PUB&year_of_study=2010
    • So if you're an out-of-state student, you're paying more than even Harvard by going to NEOUCOM. If you were an Ohio resident, you could actually attend some of the other public medical schools as an out-of-state student and STILL pay less than you would as an in-state resident at NEOUCOM)
    Annually, this will go up every year with inflation.

    The undergraduate institutions are Kent State University, Youngstown State University, or The University of Akron. Each have their own tuition settings, but they're pretty close in cost.

    Youngstown State University: YSU - Office of Financial Aid and Scholarships (Tuition)
    Kent State University: Tuition and Fees
    The University of Akron: Information about tuition | The Office of Student Accounts

    At most regular undergrads, 12 credit hours is required to be a full-time student. On average, 15-18 credit hours is considered "normal course load" in a Fall/Spring Semester. More than 18 credit hours is considered an "overload". Assuming you take and complete the "normal course load" each Fall/Spring, summers are not necessary.

    Now see the undergrad curriculum mapped out at each undergrad institution where you have to take Summer, Fall, and Spring semesters:

    Youngstown State University: http://www.ysu.edu/admissions/pdfs/bs_md_curriculum_sheet_2013.pdf
    • In the Fall/Spring you're taking 20-23 credit hours and in the summer is 9-12 credit hours.
    Kent State University: Course Requirements
    • In the Fall/Spring you're taking 18-19 credit hours and in the summer is 12-14 credit hours.
    The University of Akron: Semester by Semester Curriculum
    • Here in the Fall/Spring you're taking 20-24 credit hours and in the summer is 14-15 or 7-12 credit hours.
    Because the program requires a B.S. degree and you only have 2 years, you have to take an "overload" in number of credit hours each semester. So, for example, in this particular program, you don't get to relax and enjoy the undergraduate portion at all. If anything -- you'll get burned out completely.
  • MD2B2012MD2B2012 Registered User Posts: 146 Junior Member
    schrizto wrote:
    lawl, MD2B, did you really have to include a link to the definition of the word arduous? It's an insult to the intelligence of CC members.

    My only point, schrizto, in linking to the definition was to say that the process would hardly classify as arduous, as per the actual definition, and seemed to have been used hyperbolically. It wasn't to insult anyone's intelligence. I apologize if you felt I was insulting your intelligence or the intelligence of CC members.
  • schriztoschrizto Registered User Posts: 4,099 Senior Member
    In addition to NEOUCOM, here's some of the programs I think applicants apply to only for the sake of a spot in a medical school.

    UMKC is also ridiculously expensive OOS and could be considered to have a reputation not even as good as NEOUCOM. There is also the phenomenon of the white or Asian kid applying to Howard's BS/MD as the only HBC school they apply to. Another is the type of program where an applicant would have never heard of the undergrad school and would have never considered it either, but will totally go for the program because it is linked with a decent medical school (ie SBU/GWU). I see kids with 2300 SATs, 15 APs, and research applying to UMKC and I really think they would be better off in the long run at their own state school and going the traditional route than UMKC. The factor of fit with a school seems to be completely overlooked in these cases.

    Most BS/MD applicants do not apply to these programs, however, because many applicants can see farther than just getting a spot in any medical school. It's always HPME, PLME, and R/B that are most discussed and it's understandable that it might be a difficult choice between one of such programs and one of HYPSM.
  • paki786paki786 Registered User Posts: 862 Member
    First off, it is NOT a dilemma many are going through. Second, I respect your opinion and all, but lets wait until someone asks a certain question regarding this. Hypothetical pondering has no point.
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    @paki786
    "hypothetical pondering" does have a point, especially when it may have an impact on your list of colleges.

    it allows you to think about the future and what you want to do with your college + years

    so in this case, it makes complete sense to think ahead

    if you still don't see the benefits.
    it will allow me to choose whether or not I want to apply to both normal universities and thsoe with the combined medical program.

    it may seem like a common sense type of problem to just apply to both kinds of universities

    but you would be surprised to see the amount of students who only apply to one kind and regret their decision

    for that reason i just wanted to hear the reasoning of the general public
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    and yeah it kind of is a dilemma. O.O
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    to my other CCers
    may i bring to your attention the subject of financial aid

    how does it generally work for those in the combined medical program?
    do they have financial aid for both undergraduate and medical school?
    or just undergraduate, like many other universities?
  • fianchettofianchetto Registered User Posts: 280 Junior Member
    haha when i get into PLME or HPME, I'll start pondering about this "dilemma". I'll be more than happy to ponder all day about this when I get in.

    And yes, about financial aid. Unfortunately, BS/MD programs don't offer much financial aid because most students are already cream of the crop.
  • schriztoschrizto Registered User Posts: 4,099 Senior Member
    Unfortunately, BS/MD programs don't offer much financial aid because most students are already cream of the crop.

    If you're talking about financial aid at schools like NU or Brown, it's need-based. The reason people say that there isn't much financial aid at these schools isn't because the students are the "cream of the crop" but because most of the FA goes to those from low-income families.

    On the other hand, BS/MD students in other programs usually get the best merit aid if their stats are significantly better than the average SAT and gpa at the undergrad school. Those in USC's BA/MD usually get a half-tuition scholarship, Pitt's all have full-tuition scholarships, etc. I believe Rice also offers merit aid on top of its tuition that is already cheap for a top private school (which is why I think it's better than HPME or PLME :D).
  • fianchettofianchetto Registered User Posts: 280 Junior Member
    yea I got full tuition to UPitt. Still procrastinating on the GAP supplement, which is due on 1/29.
  • blizzardpenguinblizzardpenguin Registered User Posts: 123 Junior Member
    @schrizto
    do those scholarships last throughout the entire medical program?
    both need-based FA and merit scholarships?
  • schriztoschrizto Registered User Posts: 4,099 Senior Member
    If you get any scholarships they can be renewed each of your undergraduate years provided you maintain the minimum gpa requirements. Need-based FA needs to be reapplied for every year.

    Don't expect any scholarships for medical school. There are scholarships awarded by medical schools but they are for exceptional candidates who apply the traditional route. It's actually less likely for someone in a BS/MD to get a scholarship in medical school because they may not have taken the MCAT (which is usually a factor in awarding a scholarship).
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