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About the Case (CWRU)-CIM Joint Program

elpianoelpiano Registered User Posts: 38 Junior Member
I'm a high school senior, looking to double degree in Piano Performance and some sort of science. I'm very interested in the CWRU-CIM collaboration (I would apply to Case).

The thing I'm worried about is the the relationship between the Case music majors and the CIM applied music professors - are Case students seen as 'second rate'? Do they get equal attention from the professors as the students at CIM?

Replies to: About the Case (CWRU)-CIM Joint Program

  • cellomom2cellomom2 Registered User Posts: 589 Member
    Hello elpiano! My S applied to both Case and CIM 4 years ago planning to pursue a dual degree in cello performance and math. So here is my understanding of how the relationship between CIM and Case works. You should definitely verify my info since it may have changed but I think the basics are still the same.
    If you apply to and are accepted as a student to CIM you are granted full access to Case to pursue academic classes or a second degree there, you do do not have to submit a seperate application to Case. All your music studies are done at CIM, lessons, ensembles, music theory, music history etc. Please note that if you pursue an academic degree
    at Case you will pay a supplemental tuition fee over and above what you are already paying to CIM. At the time we looked comprehensive fees at CIM- tuition, R&B and fees were about $53,000 and the supplemental fee to Case was $3000.
    If you apply to and are accepted as a music student to Case there is very little crossover into CIM. Case has it's own music major program. So you would have a private lesson teacher and be in ensembles at Case. The only crossover is that you take academic music classes- music history and music theory at CIM, all ensembles, lessons and performances are through Case's own music program. There is some mingling of teachers. For example, 4 years ago the chamber music programs at CIM and Case were run by the same person, a member of the Cavani String quartet which is the resident chamber music group at CIM. However, they were separate programs, CIM students worked with CIM students and Case students worked with Case students. Also, the teacher my S would have studied with at Case also was on the faculty at CIM and Cleveland State. Something to think about when you compare programs is how much time you would actually spend with your primary lesson teacher and how accessible they are. My S really liked the teacher at Case however he was only able to offer a monthly studio class combining all his students from the 3 places he taught whereas at UM where my S is studying now his teacher has a weekly studio class and a technique class in addition to his weekly lesson. Good luck and I hope this helps!
  • Mezzo'sMamaMezzo'sMama Forum Champion Music Major Posts: 3,536 Forum Champion
    There is the Joint Music Program with CIM/CWRU and the more intense, Dual Degree Program with CWRU. With the latter, you apply only to CIM who handles all of the paperwork and you get two degrees in a 5 year program. Here is the link.
    https://www.cim.edu/conservatory/joint-music-program
  • guineagirl96guineagirl96 Forum Champion Math/Computer Science, Forum Champion Richmond Posts: 3,840 Forum Champion
    edited October 2014
    My brother is at CIM and I was accepted to, but declined, my offer to CWRU last year. Just some notes and corrections on the above that @cellomom2‌ mentioned: the two music departments are quite linked but separate. The two departments don't really duplicate classes for the most part- there is one course catalog between CIM and CWRU. Most ensembles are the same for both students, example wind ensemble is a CWRU ensemble that CIM students play in. As a student at CWRU, your private lessons will be through CIM with a few exceptions (popular instruments might be, I know historical instruments are). CWRU doesn't have its own set of applied faculty, you'll take lessons with CIM teachers. All students at CIM have academic requirements, which are taken at CWRU. Music History is also through CWRU, not CIM- all CIM students take music history at CWRU. In addition, CWRU students take music theory from CIM faculty, although they don't have to necessarily follow the CIM progression. I don't believe a second degree/major at CWRU has an additional cost (other than that of additional semesters, of course) if you are at CIM (my brother was looking to do this, but dropped it early on b/c of time commitment), your CIM tuition covers your courses at CWRU. The students aren't seen as second rate by their teachers or anything, but note you'll be in with CIM students, so that will make things more competitive. For example, the CWRU wind ensemble is only about 1/3 CWRU students, the rest are CIM students.
  • cellomom2cellomom2 Registered User Posts: 589 Member
    It does look like it's more integrated than it was when my son applied several years ago. Case used to have it's own private lesson teachers. But some of the ensembles are still distinct. For example it looks like they each have their own orchestras, but it does look like Case students now do chamber music at CIM. Sorry I relayed incorrect information, I hadn't checked it since my son applied 4 years ago.
  • Mezzo'sMamaMezzo'sMama Forum Champion Music Major Posts: 3,536 Forum Champion
    edited October 2014
    Just to clarify, the degree through Case is a B.A, either as a Music major or combined as a Dual Degree. Their B.S. is in Music Ed. But they have revamped so that the lessons are with CIM instructors- I think that began in the 2012-13 school year.
    If you enroll through CIM, you get two degrees, a B.M from CIM and either a B.A. or a B.S from Case.

    http://music.case.edu/ugrad-academic-programs/double-major-dual-degree-program-information/

    http://music.case.edu/ugrad-academic-programs/b-a-in-music-program-information/
  • greatchoirgreatchoir Registered User Posts: 36 Junior Member
    Any idea about the FA differences between applying to CIM vs. applying to CWRU?
  • guineagirl96guineagirl96 Forum Champion Math/Computer Science, Forum Champion Richmond Posts: 3,840 Forum Champion
    @cellomom2‌ no problem, the program has been developing greatly in the last 5 years or so! Just wanted to make sure OP has the most up-to-date information.

    @greatchoir‌ just from personal experience, CWRU isn't known for stellar financial aid- its good but they don't meet full need for most students- I think the average is around 85% need met, but I'd have to look that up to get a definite number. CIM has pretty good financial aid (don't really have any stats on it). The one thing I must mention is that it is significantly harder to get merit aid at CIM. CWRU offers a large number of "automatic" (no separate application) merit scholarships ranging from $15k a year to $30k a year. There are also their competitive scholarships on their website that you can apply for. CWRU also offers 8 full-tuition music scholarships every year (I received one last year, but declined- got full tuition at another school too... was a tough april). CIM has endowed scholarships and institution scholarships- both factor in need and merit. However, the merit portion is very difficult, as you'd expect at a conservatory. My brother has a very large merit scholarship, but that was because he got into arguably the top program in the country for his instrument, but couldn't afford it. CIM and another conservatory essentially had a bidding war for him.

    I would definitely recommend coming from the CWRU side for you. Mainly because the BA degree has significantly less requirements than the BM degree (which is very,very time consuming), but also because of the second major you're looking at.
  • Mezzo'sMamaMezzo'sMama Forum Champion Music Major Posts: 3,536 Forum Champion
    edited October 2014
    If you go the Dual Degree route, your financial aid comes from CIM only. Majoring in Piano Performance takes up a lot of your time and even more so if you go the B.M. route through the conservatory because there you are a performing musician and with the degree at Case, you'll have your academic classes as well as the labs. It can be tough to be in two places at once!
    Before you make up your mind and fill out the forms, step back and think about why you want the degrees and what you expect to do with each of them. Looking ahead 5 years can help put you on the right path next fall.
  • elpianoelpiano Registered User Posts: 38 Junior Member
    Thanks everyone for all the comments! They helped clear things up for me tremendously.

    To clarify, I'm planning on applying to Case for a BA/BS double degree (much more manageable than a CIM BM/Case BS double degree!), and I wanted to make sure I would still get a high level of musical training, as close to a conservatory style as possible. The Case/CIM JMP seemed too good to be true.

    Since most of the ensembles are combined and the classes seem to be the same for each (although obviously the BM has more music-related classes), I would imagine that the level of playing across the two is about even, which I assume would translate into equal treatment of the students, regardless of the 'home' school.

    @guineagirl96‌, I have a really detailed question, on the off chance that you know the answer: are the practice rooms and performance spaces for the schools separate? As a pianist, I know CIM has wonderful pianos available, and I can't help but wonder if Case students get to use them.

    By the looks of it, the only difference between matriculating at Case vs. CIM would be getting a BA vs. a BM. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the degrees seem quite similar, albeit with a few more academic classes for the BA and a more performance-focused approach for the BM. Is that correct?
  • Classical10Classical10 Registered User Posts: 1 New Member
    I'm joining CC and this discussion because I think the OP may have put several pieces of info together and come up with an incomplete picture. ei, this program may be terrific for you given your science interest, but I think you've developed a couple misapprehensions.

    First, the playing across the two programs is far from equal. CIM students are amongst the tops in their instruments anywhere. Most in Case's programs are not nearly the same level as players. And - that's absolutely fine - most Case students aspire to a career in another field or they are doing music ed degrees or interested in music history, early music, etc. The admission requirements for playing level differ greatly in the two programs.

    Second, regarding teachers. Check the CIM faculty website and notice the number of teachers listed as "Secondary Instrument". In most cases, these are the instructors teaching students at Case. Not that they aren't necessarily good teachers, but as a Case student, you aren't likely to have a choice of Babayan, etc as your teacher. Also, check the policies on Studio classes. Many CIM instructors run weekly studio classes for their CIM students, the frequency and availability of studio classes for Case students may differ. Case students do not generally attend or perform in Studio Classes with CIM students - ask this question specifically if it's important to you as different teachers may operate differently (and things may be available to an unusually "good" Case student that wouldn't normally be offered.)

    Third, the cross-over in ensembles is less than you are picturing. Chamber music does not mix the players from the 2 schools. The Cavani Quartet members may well coach a Case ensemble, but it won't have CIM students in it. The orchestras are separate. The Baroque Ensembles are combined and use Case's collection of original instruments. (Case has an excellent Early Music Department.) Wind Ensemble is combined, but CIM students are rotated in and out - there is no standing roster. CIM has no bands.

    Case has it's own practice rooms and Case students are expected to use those. CIM students live in a CIM dorm and CASE students are with other Case students (which I'm sure you'd like with the science interest).

    You need to ask very specific questions of Case Music Admissions, the general information is too general and the situation may be different depending on the instrument the student plays. For example, who might your piano teacher might be, would you know who the teacher is before enrolling, etc. Ask about the policies on studio classes and specific ensembles that would be open to you. Ideally, you could talk with several current Joint Program or Case Music Majors. Have a lesson with one of the piano faculty - that person can discuss studio classes, practice rooms, performance opportunities, etc.

    I've know two students who recently went to Case thinking that there would be a lot of crossover and friendships and collaborations with CIM students. They left very disappointed - wouldn't want that to happen to you or anyone else reading the board. The program could be a great option for the right student. just don't expect that by enrolling in the Case Joint Program you are going to get the same level of musicianship and music options that would be available in the CIM Dual Degree Program. Good luck!
  • compmomcompmom Registered User Posts: 9,620 Senior Member
    Can you tell us why you want to do a double degree versus doing a BM in piano (or, alternatively, doing a science major and continuing private lessons). Is this a matter of having a "back up plan," or do you have competing interests in music and science?
  • guineagirl96guineagirl96 Forum Champion Math/Computer Science, Forum Champion Richmond Posts: 3,840 Forum Champion
    @elpiano‌ no, Im not sure you're quite grasping the differences. @Classical10‌ makes some great points (although there are some errors in that too). CIM is a conservatory- it is considered the top for many instruments. To give you an idea, there are 8 trumpets at CIM- this includes masters students, which means they admit only 1-3 trumpets every year. These students are the best of the best- they spend countless hours every day practicing. CWRU is a much different environment and program- the majority of music majors at CWRU are double majors- they don't want to be professionals (otherwise they would have applied to CIM or similar schools), but enjoy doing music. It is much less intensive and less is expected of you. However, CWRU students get equal attention from their professors, especially their applied teachers. The CWRU and CIM studios are separate, meaning separate studio classes, however, it will be a CIM professor. It is only natural that the teacher which is not the top will teach the CWRU studio- there are CIM students that don't ever make the top studio. The practice rooms at CIM are primarily for CIM students- CWRU has its own practice rooms. CIM is one self-contained building which has performance halls, music libraries, class rooms, studios, and practice rooms. Note that CIM students actually stay in a case dorm that CIM rents (it is right behind the conservatory). CIM does not own a dorm. This is an important distinction because, although this dorm is only CIM students, if CIM is overenrolled, they will put students on a floor of another CWRU dorm, meaning that students could possibly be in the same dorm between CIM and CWRU. Also note that although some ensembles are CIM-only, CIM students are allowed to audition for and join many CWRU ensembles if they please. For example, University Band (some CIM students are paid to fill out sections in lower band too), Case Concert Choir, Baroque Orchestra, all allow CIM students.

    @Classical10‌ what do you mean by "no standing roster"? Yes, CIM students are assigned to the band for a required amount of semesters, but the top band is 2/3 CIM students .
  • elpianoelpiano Registered User Posts: 38 Junior Member
    I've know two students who recently went to Case thinking that there would be a lot of crossover and friendships and collaborations with CIM students.

    @Classical10‌ , that's exactly what I thought, but apparently it's not true. Very disappointing for me.

    @compmom‌ , I don't want this thread to get too wrapped up in the 'double degree dilemma', as I've seen it called around here, since there are plenty of threads devoted entirely to that aspect. I don't have an easy, clear answer, but here goes: I've always excelled at academics, but music is something I love and spend all my time on (as do most music majors). I'm not a prodigy, and I started late, but my private teacher (who is experienced with the BM admissions process) says I have a solid shot at schools like Eastman or Blair. I know I want to major in music, even if I won't become a soloist. I hope to have a career in music - academia is my dream career path, while probably maintaining a private studio, performing/accompanying, etc.

    A science degree (I was thinking engineering, but nothing's definite) would open up options in what I think of as the other side of a 'music' career. Studying music and the brain, or something in technology and computers. More 'thinking about' music than purely 'doing' music. I'm a science-y person, school-wise. I enjoy it and I'm good at it. Not my dream right now, but I'm making a conscious effort to not rule possibilities out, especially when I'm only 17 years old.

    Essentially, while right now I want to have a career straight down the music path, I'm keeping my options open because I do have other strengths and interests to potentially combine with my main. I'm applying to a several different degree types/combinations. And hopefully, come graduation, I'll have a definitive trajectory planned for deciding whether to pursue a MM or a higher degree in a different field.

    Whoops, that explanation ended up much longer than I'd anticipated ^^^. In complete seriousness, feel free to inform me of glaring flaws in my logic - the sooner, the better!

    With regards the the Case/CIM comments, I can't thank everyone enough. This has been incredibly informative, although I'm not sure if Case is right for me anymore. Hopefully it'll be helpful to the next confused high school senior :)
  • compmomcompmom Registered User Posts: 9,620 Senior Member
    If you have read the Peabody admissions essay on the "double degree dilemma" you will see that your explanation fits perfectly with students who do a double degree :)

    Check out Brown, by the way. Their music major has three strands, composition, ethnomusicology and technology. There is a lot going on with technology and music that might interest you. If KMCMom comes on she can also tell you about U. of Michigan and there are other programs. But that might be for the future...

    Your plan to apply to lots of options is very smart- you seem to know exactly what you are doing...Good luck!
  • Mezzo'sMamaMezzo'sMama Forum Champion Music Major Posts: 3,536 Forum Champion
    Just to add onto the housing comments of guineagirl96: on the rare occasions that CIM has more students enroll than can be accommodated in Cutter House, which is their dorm (and which is never used by CWRU students), they "rent" a floor in Smith, right next door, and keep all of their students together. So there really is no "mixing" there.
    Instrumentalists won't get the top CIM teachers, but strangely, CWRU got rid of their voice teachers three in the 2012-13 school year and their voice students were slotted into CIM VP teachers studios, albeit at the time that were "left" after the CIM students chose what they wanted. Not the optimum plan.
This discussion has been closed.