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Here she comes, Miss Opposite Marriage

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Replies to: Here she comes, Miss Opposite Marriage

  • zoosermomzoosermom Registered User Posts: 25,990 Senior Member
    Allh, so just changing the channel isn't good enough for you? You want something legal banned because it makes you uncomfortable? Ok then.
  • alhalh Registered User Posts: 8,179 Senior Member
    I was trying to give you another example of free speech.
  • nbachris2788nbachris2788 Registered User Posts: 4,447 Senior Member
    Gay marriage is also about the role that government has in society's morals. At this point, it's pretty much the government vs. the churches (with the exception of a few enlightened denominations). Gay marriage has become a proxy for those who believe the society's morals should be determined by church and religion and not by government mandate.
  • zoosermomzoosermom Registered User Posts: 25,990 Senior Member
    nbachris, you paint with too broad a brush.

    Allh, how is banning something legal an example of free speech?
  • momfrommemomfromme Registered User Posts: 2,669 Senior Member
    Kind of related -- New Hampshire's state House and Senate have voted for equal marriage:
    New Hampshire Senate passes gay-marriage bill | Lifestyle | Reuters
  • nbachris2788nbachris2788 Registered User Posts: 4,447 Senior Member
    nbachris, you paint with too broad a brush.

    Which one of my statements are you referring to?
  • alhalh Registered User Posts: 8,179 Senior Member
    post 20: Having the right to say it is free speech. Having the right to express my personal views, even against the status quo, is free speech. I think. Lawyers on this thread will correct me if I am wrong.

    Honestly zoosermom, I really don't care about beauty pageants all that much and probably would support her right to a crown. But I wasn't raised that way.

    edit: of course, if my personal views are deemed so reprehensible by society that they receive universal condemnation and/or ridicule, I may want to reconsider the wisdom of putting them out there.
  • zoosermomzoosermom Registered User Posts: 25,990 Senior Member
    Yes allh, you absolutely have the right to express your views. But I asked, collectively, what attacking someone for doing the same says about the attacker.
    Gay marriage has become a proxy for those who believe the society's morals should be determined by church and religion and not by government mandate.
    This one, and the "few denominations" part. Many Protestant denominations support gay marriage and have long been in the front of that movement.
  • zoosermomzoosermom Registered User Posts: 25,990 Senior Member
    edit: of course, if my personal views are deemed so reprehensible by society that they receive universal condemnation and/or ridicule, I may want to reconsider the wisdom of putting them out there.
    Who would decide? HOw would you define "society?' Are you willing to let others dictate what you say?

    Personally, I'm a believer in "I don't agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" as opposed to "If you say something I don't agree with, I won't kill you but I'll make your life a living hell."
  • alhalh Registered User Posts: 8,179 Senior Member
    ^^My view: I don't agree with what you say; I'll defend to the death your right to say it; but I will try to create a society where you saying it will make you so uncomfortable that you won't say it anymore. It is your right to say what you wish. It is my right to challenge what you say.

    Not to derail the thread entirely but I support the right of the Klan to free speech. But I am never polite about them.
  • zoosermomzoosermom Registered User Posts: 25,990 Senior Member
    but I will try to create a society where you saying it will make you so uncomfortable that you won't say it anymore
    So if someone says something with which you disagree, you will make your best effort to silence them. I can't tell you how much I don't respect that, but I'm glad that you're free to say that. I sincerely believe in the right of others to hold different opinions. In fact, I wouldn't want to live in a nation where people different from me were silenced. I am as strongly opposed to what you've said here as you are to opposition to gay marriage -- in fact your view goes against every value that I hold dear, but I would never try to silence you.
  • alhalh Registered User Posts: 8,179 Senior Member
    ^^zoozermom: I respect absolutely everything I have ever seen you post. I have just finished a long string of posts on the tipping point thread about my belief that homophobic speech left unchallenged raises the possibility of violence being seen as acceptable to gay children and adolescents. Obviously adults also. For that reason I do advocate challenging that sort of speech until it becomes unthinkable among reasonable citizens, in pretty much the same way we currently view the free speech rights of various white supremacist groups.

    This could be better reasoned and written but you will get the general idea.
  • HannaHanna Registered User Posts: 14,412 Senior Member
    “If courts rule that same-sex marriage is a civil right, then, people like you and me who believe children need moms and dads will be treated like bigots and racists. When the idea that children need moms and dads get legally stigmatized as bigotry, the job of parents and faith communities trying to transmit a marriage culture to their kids is going to get a lot harder.”

    Translation: We are entitled to remain in the mainstream of American culture. If the mainstream starts to flow away from us, leaving us on the fringe, the mainstream must be pulled back to where it used to be, so that we remain in the center. Otherwise, the mainstream is infringing on our right to be part of it.

    Trouble is, this argument has no legal force. The constitution recognizes a right to equal treatment under the law, regardless of your beliefs. But there is no right to equal treatment in the court of public opinion. If people exclude you socially because they think you're a bigot, that's protected under the right of free association, just like the right to exclude people socially because they're gay.

    They're absolutely right that allowing gay marriage will make it harder for them to convince their children that gay unions are bad. No doubt, it's harder to raise racist children in the U.S. today than it was in 1960. Openly racist people used to be mainstream and widely accepted. Nowadays, if white supremacists want to pass on racist values to their children, they have to teach those children to swim upstream. It's challenging, but they manage. The same will be true of homophobes 50 years from now: they'll survive on the fringes, just like white supremacists, and teach their values to their kids despite mainstream cultural messages to the contrary. And nobody is infringing on their rights.

    This is also true of parents like mine who tried to instill progressive-fringe ideas like a preference for single-payer health care. Most people in America think we're weirdos, and that's just too bad for us.
  • klugekluge Registered User Posts: 6,559 Senior Member
    Zoosermom, aren't you currently trying to silence the people who said that they thought that Miss California was bigoted in her opinion? And if so, how are you different from them? You seem to think it's wrong to criticize Miss California for expressing her opinion, but not wrong to criticize her critics for expressing theirs. I'm having a hard time following the logic.
  • DreamingOutLoudDreamingOutLoud Registered User Posts: 276 Junior Member
    Yes:

    What’s the harm from same-sex marriage? “How can Adam and Steve hurt your marriage?”

    A: “Who gets harmed? The people of this state who lose our right to define marriage as the union of husband and wife, that’s who. That is just not right.”

    A: “If courts rule that same-sex marriage is a civil right, then, people like you and me who believe children need moms and dads will be treated like bigots and racists.”

    “Religious groups like Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army may lose their tax exemptions, or be denied the use of parks and other public facilities, unless they endorse gay marriage."

    “Public schools will teach young children that two men being intimate are just the same as a husband and wife, even when it comes to raising kids.”

    “When the idea that children need moms and dads get legally stigmatized as bigotry, the job of parents and faith communities trying to transmit a marriage culture to their kids is going to get a lot harder.”

    “One thing is for sure: The people of this state will lose our right to keep marriage as the union of a husband and wife. That’s not right.”

    While being raised by a mother and father seems like a nice ideal, I don't feel that it is necessary. I was raised solely by my mother and have had an awesome life. I've done well in schools, participated in extra curriculars, formed close bonds with my family, etc. Just as I grew up with one parent and turned out fine, I have no doubt there are plenty of loving gay men or lesbian women that can raise their children properly and give them a great life.

    I've been a Catholic all of my life, and I still fully support gay marriage. In every time period in America, people have been discriminated against. Irish, African Americans, Japanese, women, etc. As someone who fits into more than a few of these categories, who am I to support gay people being deprived of the right to get married or at least be joined in civil union.

    I find it sad that some people aren't willing to help the gay community in their struggle, mostly because they do not identify with them. I know that if I was born into someone else's shoes and had grown up a gay man, fallen deeply in love with another man and was not able to get married, I would be extremely angry.

    Still, I understand the fact that people have their own opinions and I respect that.
This discussion has been closed.