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Mississippi may change state flag...

ucbalumnusucbalumnus 83881 replies744 threads Senior Member
... to remove the Confederate battle flag. The resolution passed a procedural vote that required 2/3 in both houses of the state legislature.

https://mississippitoday.org/2020/06/27/historic-moment-lawmakers-clear-difficult-hurdle-to-consider-bill-that-would-remove-the-mississippi-state-flag/

Mississippi is currently the only state with a Confederate battle flag in its state flag, but Georgia's state flag closely resembles the lesser known Confederate first national flag.
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Replies to: Mississippi may change state flag...

  • Nrdsb4Nrdsb4 18110 replies164 threads Senior Member
    edited June 28
    @conmama, oops. :smiley:
    edited June 28
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  • Nrdsb4Nrdsb4 18110 replies164 threads Senior Member
    edited June 28
    I wonder what kind of response the citizens of Mississippi are having or will have to this. As much as it seems a no brainer to me, it may be much more of a dividing issue there.

    edited June 28
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  • doschicosdoschicos 26836 replies269 threads Senior Member
    Nrdsb4 wrote: »
    I wonder what kind of response the citizens of Mississippi are or will have to this. As much as it seems a no brainer to me, it may be much more of a dividing issue there.

    I only know one Mississippian, a young woman in her 20s who I met through my son, and she is thrilled according to her several instagram stories and posts about it. :)
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  • dadof3and1dogdadof3and1dog 70 replies5 threads Junior Member
    I also hope Mississippi and Georgia remove these symbols of division that cause so much pain to the fabric of our country. But the deep underlying problem was exemplified by another poster. How can these symbols that cause extreme duress and pain to millions of American citizens today and represent perhaps one of the darkest times in our country’s history not be known by all Americans?

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  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus 83881 replies744 threads Senior Member
    I also hope Mississippi and Georgia remove these symbols of division that cause so much pain to the fabric of our country. But the deep underlying problem was exemplified by another poster. How can these symbols that cause extreme duress and pain to millions of American citizens today and represent perhaps one of the darkest times in our country’s history not be known by all Americans?

    The Confederate battle flags (the ones with the X pattern) are pretty well known, since they are commonly depicted in historical context. The Confederate national flags (particularly the first one) are much less commonly recognized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America shows what the various Confederate flags looked like.

    The current Mississippi state flag dates from 1894; other historical flags and proposals can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mississippi . It also notes that there is opposition to the current flag from the SEC, NCAA, Mississippi Baptist Convention, and Walmart.

    The Georgia state flag and its history can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state) .
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  • dadof3and1dogdadof3and1dog 70 replies5 threads Junior Member
    Thanks uc. This historical info is informative. I think most people (like myself) are not aware of the nuances and variations of the confederate flag. However the flag showing the criss-cross lines seems to be the flag that most people can identify with as being representative of division.

    I remain puzzled as to why there is even a debate as to the removal of this symbol which obviously represents a historical and a current source of pain for so many.

    My question is not meant to be flippant as much as I am truly curious as to why there is such fervent debate as to this symbol’s removal.
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  • TatinGTatinG 7309 replies120 threads Senior Member
    edited June 28
    The Mississippi flag will look like the flag of the Netherlands upside down. :)
    edited June 28
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  • Nrdsb4Nrdsb4 18110 replies164 threads Senior Member
    Okay, well I just read a tweet by Faith Hill (Mississippi girl) advocating for changing the flag and boy did she get some nasty responses. So this is going to be a hotly debated topic.
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  • dadof3and1dogdadof3and1dog 70 replies5 threads Junior Member
    Nrd, the response to faith hill is telling. There are some people to have no problems using the importance or significance of “history” as a basis to continue to cause pain to millions of Americans. “History” and social pain seem to be separate issues.

    It is and will continue to be a hotly contested debate for sure. The very fact that this debate will be hotly contested probably exemplifies how little (or least how slow) progress has been made to these types of issues.

    Maybe the country coming to grips with a terrible past and then making real amends is the first step that is taking place at this time in history. Without the realization of the past and a resolution, things like this will continue to fester until it boils over again and again.

    It’s terribly sad to see.
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  • CreeklandCreekland 6895 replies93 threads Senior Member
    My question is not meant to be flippant as much as I am truly curious as to why there is such fervent debate as to this symbol’s removal.

    My guess? Tradition

    It's very, very tough for some people to let go of things simply, "because that's the way it's always been."

    It doesn't have to be a flag. It can be anything as simple as, "that's the way I've always put my clothes on or cooked broccoli or parked my car," or, "that's the way school/church/gov't has always been" or whatever.

    Change is just plain "wrong" as the default.

    Evolutionarily speaking (or natural selection wise speaking), keeping things the same as has worked before is usually safer than trying something new, so it's a common human response. Then any sort of reason needed is thought of to support tradition. Any other reason proposed is scoffed at.

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  • MaineLonghornMaineLonghorn 42325 replies2284 threads Super Moderator
    edited June 28
    I think it's deeper than that. Pride in southern (or Texan) roots go deep. My ancestor brought more immigrants to Texas than anyone other than Stephen F. Austin. I had several relatives who fought for the Confederacy. I know it's hard to understand, but people still take pride in their ancestry. The other part of it is that some southerners and Texans still feel a lot of anger about Reconstruction. "Damn Yankees" is not a phrase without meaning down there. I was shocked when I moved to Maine and saw "Yankee Ford" and "Yankee Bowling Lanes" - yikes, not good connotations. When my husband's graduate school friends realized he and I were getting serious, they said to him, "Are you nuts? You're a Yankee and you're dating your professor's daughter?" They were only half-joking (fortunately, Dad liked DH).

    So people still hang on to the Confederate flag as a symbol of their background. They don't see the racist symbolism. I know that's not right, but that's the way it is.
    edited June 28
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  • dadof3and1dogdadof3and1dog 70 replies5 threads Junior Member
    Creek yes I would agree that “history” or “tradition” are the main reasons. But those are reasons are fraught with dangerous rationales and can lack empathy

    I actually understand the appreciation for history and tradition. But history and tradition do not have to be mistake free. To the contrary, history and tradition are filled with examples of mistakes, bad judgment, etc. Without exception, mistakes are and have been made in America and by all other countries and people.

    To me the underlying problem may lie in the ideal of America (and most of not all other countries) needing to be or being “perfect.” This underlying ideal seems to be the basis of a lot of world and moral problems.



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  • CreeklandCreekland 6895 replies93 threads Senior Member
    Creek yes I would agree that “history” or “tradition” are the main reasons. But those are reasons are fraught with dangerous rationales and can lack empathy

    I actually understand the appreciation for history and tradition. But history and tradition do not have to be mistake free. To the contrary, history and tradition are filled with examples of mistakes, bad judgment, etc. Without exception, mistakes are and have been made in America and by all other countries and people.

    To me the underlying problem may lie in the ideal of America (and most of not all other countries) needing to be or being “perfect.” This underlying ideal seems to be the basis of a lot of world and moral problems.

    We live near Gettysburg and locally there is talk about whether some of the monuments outside of the museum should be removed. My lad shared with me some of his discussions online about it. Those who feel the monuments should stay brought up Auschwitz as an example of keeping history - even bad history - fresh in people's minds so it hopefully wouldn't be repeated ever again. To that those who felt they should go replied, "but Auschwitz isn't showing off statues of Hitler and his cohorts with pride."

    It's nowhere near a perfect match considering genocide vs Civil War, but that's what at least one young set was discussing.

    H and I are neutral about monuments at Gettysburg. We can see both sides. He's a southerner from birth. I'm a northerner. We have a mixed marriage which can make it interesting at times. When he was in school he learned all about "The War of Northern Aggression" more than he learned about the "Civil War" in history class. My history classes moved on through the world wars, Korea, Vietnam and up to then modern day. His didn't go far beyond the Northern Aggression only lightly touching upon WWII.

    I haven't asked him how he feels about MS' flag. I know I feel they should change it. I'm positive our upbringings (aka tradition) have a lot to do with how we feel.
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  • Waiting2exhaleWaiting2exhale 3087 replies18 threads Senior Member
    If people are clinging to the Confederate flag because they are angry at the events following Reconstruction, and it is adherence to the tradition of that upset and anger which binds the rebel emblem to their hearts and minds, maybe a newly constructed understanding of the word re-construction is in order.

    It was not intended to be a re-institution, a renewal, a rehab or a review or return to.



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  • doschicosdoschicos 26836 replies269 threads Senior Member
    For some it might be "tradition" or "history" but the unfortunate reality is there are also a lot of bigots and racists out there.
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