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ROTC and College

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Replies to: ROTC and College

  • Iron MaidenIron Maiden 2028 replies53 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 2,081 Senior Member
    Totally not true Busdriver. ROTC programs do not look for ways to disenroll students to "save money". It is in their vested interest to develop these officers. The money is a rounding error in a rounding error.

    The kids are given a set of rules they can't break. They are not normal college kids. Underage drinking? Out. OUI? Out. Honors violation? Out. Insubordination? Out. Arrest. Out. Fail a drug test? Out.

    It's part of the agreement. Sometimes is there a grey area? Sure and the parents / student may not agree. But there is NO effort to kick kids out to get their money back. That is absurd. These kids are held to a higher standard.
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  • cobratcobrat 12207 replies78 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    The kids are given a set of rules they can't break. They are not normal college kids. Underage drinking? Out. OUI? Out. Honors violation? Out. Insubordination? Out. Arrest. Out. Fail a drug test? Out.

    Just out of curiosity, is there a way for an ROTC student to appeal disenrollment if his/her arrest is due to factors such as mistaken identity, police/prosecutorial misconduct, etc?
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  • Iron MaidenIron Maiden 2028 replies53 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 2,081 Senior Member
    There is a review process that happens prior to disenrollment where the student presents their case. But once the decision is made I believe it is final.
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  • ldavisldavis 565 replies107 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 672 Member
    Cobrat.... I really dont know from experience, but I did Google it to check out disenrollment. There was a case where a student appealed his case by getting a letter of character from someone in the community and pleading their case. There may have been special circumstances, a sick parent or something and failing grades. The DUI or failed drug test I would think would be harder to appeal but I am just guessing.
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  • busdriver11busdriver11 15144 replies28 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 15,172 Senior Member
    I think if you knew some of these kids/parents of kids who were disenrolled unfairly, you might have a different opinion. I would have had your opinion previously.

    Things are different now than they were in the good old days. They weren't looking hard to disenroll cadets for any possible reason, they were looking to retain cadets at all costs. I didn't know a single person who got disenrolled. If your grades weren't up to snuff (and the grade requirement was specifically spelled out), you got a warning, and then you lost your scholarship. You didn't have to pay anything back, and you certainly weren't disenrolled. You just lost your scholarship for the rest of the time.

    I laugh at the thought of ROTC cadets not being involved in underage drinking. Drugs? Of course not. I knew people who had DUI's who were not disenrolled. "Honors violations" were something associated with the academies, not ROTC. Not that you weren't expected to be honorable, but there isn't someone constantly monitoring your activities in ROTC, you are more independent.

    Times change.
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  • Iron MaidenIron Maiden 2028 replies53 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 2,081 Senior Member
    They are not looking to disenroll students "for any reason". They are disenrolling them for not obeying the rules. They are being held to a higher standard and that is the way it should be. If this was not done in the past then it needed to be corrected.

    No one is saying underage ROTC students don't drink. But if you get busted for it you are at least going to a PRB and most likely gone. Same with the other violations. With so many kids competing for these spots there is no incentive for the military to keep the ones that get into trouble.

    Every disenrollment I've seen has been for cause. Saving budget dollars has NEVER entered into it. COs don't want to disenroll students - it makes them look bad.
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  • SamuraiLandsharkSamuraiLandshark 3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 3,450 Senior Member
    Iron Maiden,

    My kid is looking at nearly a $150,000 repayment for a weight gain his final semester of college.

    The weight gain was under 8 pounds. Specific statement on form: Inability to maintain weight standards.

    This was on his disenrollment forms - no option to enlist and we have appealed.

    The weight was lost before the disenrollment forms were given to him. He had never failed physical standards before. Ever.
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  • ldavisldavis 565 replies107 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 672 Member
    oh...my...gosh... do you mind me asking what branch of service? That is terrible.
    So now your son has $150k to repay... no other option?
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  • SamuraiLandsharkSamuraiLandshark 3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 3,450 Senior Member
    Never failed a drug test. No arrests, either.

    Tier 1 major.

    They also charge you "list" price for tuition for the payback - not what you might have gotten according to your family EFC.
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  • busdriver11busdriver11 15144 replies28 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 15,172 Senior Member
    "Every disenrollment I've seen has been for cause."

    Unless you are the coordinator and know the circumstance for every single disenrollment for all ROTC services, that seems like quite an assumption to make just on your personal experience. You might want to hear some experiences of others.

    Saving budget dollars can be a very high priority in the military. Military commanders can be imperfect people just like everybody else, with biases and power trips, and self preservation as top priority. There are plenty of committed officers who were pushed out before they wanted, in order to save budget dollars.
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  • SamuraiLandsharkSamuraiLandshark 3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 3,450 Senior Member
    Payment plan.

    First one was $4000 a month for 3 years. He called and asked them to extend it.

    Now it is $1300 a month for 10 years.

    Plus interest.

    He has no job at the moment. We are helping him. He did have a temp job for a while and made several payments on his own.

    Think about having this on your credit report when you go to get one of those jobs where they are looking at risky employees to hire. Not all jobs pull it, but some do.
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  • SamuraiLandsharkSamuraiLandshark 3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 3,450 Senior Member
    Yes, it does make CO's look bad, Iron Maiden.

    Not really a big deal if the CO was on his way out, as this one was.

    Budget and staffing cuts were announced along all branches of service right around the same time this happened to my kid.

    If sequestration happens, word is that tuition will not be reimbursed to the participating universities until it is resolved.
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  • busdriver11busdriver11 15144 replies28 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 15,172 Senior Member
    My dear nephew was disenrolled from AFROTC, and it was a fair decision. He flunked heartily, though he is a bright kid, I suspect he just wasn't that interested in college. But they said he could choose which service to go into for two years, or pay back the couple thousand he owed. Apparently they weren't that interested in his couple thousand dollars....had it been 150K, I wonder if they would have been intent upon getting the money. He went into the service and is doing great.

    It seems highly suspicious that if someone is disenrolled for a reason other than drugs, arrest or something serious, that they would demand repayment as an only option. That has everything to do with budget.
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  • Iron MaidenIron Maiden 2028 replies53 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 2,081 Senior Member
    Samuarai, I'm sorry about your kid but standards are standards. Eight pounds is a lot. The contract was broken. The height / weight standards are published and reviewed every semester. The contract also stated what would happen if it was broken and that it was the service's choice to require enlistment or payback. With manning dropping there is no way they would chose enlistment. But the entire ROTC budget is less than a rounding error in the military budget.

    The service paid the school at list price not your EFC so that is what is to be reimbursed.

    There is no leeway on standards now. Why should there be? There are hundreds of qualified kids turned away from scholarships every year in every branch.

    While I respect people's right to have opinions the facts don't support a concerted effort by ROTC to drop kids to save money. If there is evidence of this that can be substantiated I'd like to see it. Like I said it is not happening in the programs with which I am familiar.
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  • SamuraiLandsharkSamuraiLandshark 3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 3,450 Senior Member
    Iron Maiden,

    On a side note, I sent another kid to college this year - an athlete - a girl. She put on 6 pounds of pure muscle in 2 months from her workouts for her team. This wasn't the freshman 15, but ripped arms and legs that was from weight lifting and multiple hour workouts.

    There is fat weight and there is muscle weight, and since ROTC does not use the more accurate method of dunk test, it certainly is arbitrary. They either tape measure or weigh you. If you don't meet the typical height weight chart, it is a problem. Not every person has the same body type. This kid wasn't sitting around eating junk food and watching tv. He was hitting the gym and living on the Paleo diet and protein smoothies, wearing the same clothing sizes, by the way.

    I am not questioning the military's standards. Clearly, they exist for a reason.

    The military chose to stick to their rules and regs and that is that. Some of his fellow ROTC buddies will be buying houses one day and moving on with their lives, and he will still be paying for this debt for the next decade.

    If he had a clue that he was even out if compliance, he would have dealt with it. But he didn't know.

    So, as I said, buyer beware. Not every dissenrolled kid is out for alcohol or drugs or grades.
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