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time mag article "Sexual Assault Crisis on American campuses"

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Replies to: time mag article "Sexual Assault Crisis on American campuses"

  • collegealum314collegealum314 Registered User Posts: 6,768 Senior Member
    ^OK M2L, I understand your position better and it seems reasonable.

  • poetgrlpoetgrl Registered User Posts: 13,334 Senior Member
    The numbers you put for rape are 1 in 5 women.

    I'm not personally putting that number forward. That is the number from the most recent government study on this issue. In 2007, the year of the last study, the number was one in four. It's getting better.

    I think what you need to understand is that the reason it's at one in five is because young women don't feel raped when they have consensual sex while drinking. Understand that women feel raped when they are raped.

    Studies have found there are no more false reports of rapes than there are of any other crime.

    I'm happy to discuss solutions, but I'm uninterested in this both parties are drunk scenario. Both parties go into that situation informed at this point.....Girls have to be careful of certain things in this situation and so do the guys. On the balance, the guys have to be careful of far, far less.
  • ConsolationConsolation Registered User Posts: 23,020 Senior Member
    Actually, I think that the sturm und drang on this is mostly about the fact that according to the Title IX procedures and standards, guys now DO have to worry that they might be accused, suspended, or expelled. Whereas previously they didn't have to worry one tiny bit. Scored with a drunk female? Just put another notch on the bedpost, stud! It's the liminality thing: people agree 98% or more on rape, it's the 2% where they don't agree that they will fight over endlessly.

    Now, this doesn't address the justice or injustice of the preponderance of the evidence standard, or the actions of individual committees. In the few cases we've discussed here, many of us apparently agree that the committees refused to interview witnesses and ignored evidence of female intent and male innocence, including that produced by their own investigators. Others ignored rape kits and examinations that showed vaginal tearing. Clearly, some of these committees have members who are politically motivated one way or the other to the detriment of the students involved.

    But something MUST be done. Personally, I would like to see the Title IX standards and procedures revised to more effectively render justice. I think that's likely to happen, given the push back. I'd like to see committees composed of people who were not in thrall to a athletic department, the school administration, or an activist group, people who do not have a vested interest in a particular verdict. I'd like to see people who are fair and open-minded, and willing and able to educate themselves on such subjects as the behavior of victims after sexual assault. I'd like to see a built-in appellate group, with at each school or among consortia of schools. I think that preponderance of the evidence is too ow a standard, at least if 50.5% is going to be considered enough.
  • bearpantherbearpanther Registered User Posts: 679 Member
    New article Re the recent Brown case mentioned here previously---an interview with the accused (and suspended) man:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/08/exclusive-brown-university-student-speaks-out-on-what-it-s-like-to-be-accused-of-rape.html

    Some quotes:

    To say that nobody knows what really happened that night on August 2 except for the two people involved is a cliché; but it also fairly sums up what can be gleaned about this case from the available evidence. The discrepancies between Sclove’s and Kopin’s accounts seem too great to be explained by differences in subjective perception. Is it possible that Sclove felt pressured or intimidated in ways Kopin did not notice or understand? Perhaps. Is it possible that her bad experience with her adult student fatefully colored her perceptions of her interaction with Kopin? ....

    One can certainly argue that even if Kopin’s account is entirely true, he should have been more sensitive to Sclove’s fragile state—especially in view of his earnest protestations that their interaction that night took place “within the context of our friendship”—and should not have pursued what he describes as “a passionate hookup” under the circumstances, even if she mostly initiated it herself. But if Kopin’s account is right, and he acted like a bit of a dolt, that doesn’t add up to “non-consensual sex” for which Kopin was found responsible by the Brown disciplinary panel, let alone to the brutal rape of which he stands convicted in the court of public opinion.....

    In many ways, the current system of campus trials—in which claims of sexual assault are investigated by gender equity bureaucrats with no background in criminal justice and judged by professors, students, deans, and campus activists, with no clear rules of evidence or protections for the participants—does a grave disservice to both the wrongly accused and to victims who are misleadingly promised a friendlier alternative to law enforcement channels. On at least one point, Sen. Gillibrand is right: if Daniel Kopin is a violent rapist and near-strangler, he should be doing time in prison, not getting suspended or even expelled (the toughest disciplinary sanctions still leave a rapist free to find other victims off-campus). If he is innocent, he has been effectively branded a criminal without any of the safeguards normally accorded to criminal defendants. In the end, nobody wins.


    Comments below are also an interesting read.

  • bearpantherbearpanther Registered User Posts: 679 Member
  • 3togo3togo Registered User Posts: 5,233 Senior Member
    edited June 2014
    I'm happy to discuss solutions, but I'm uninterested in this both parties are drunk scenario. Both parties go into that situation informed at this point..

    This is why I believe you should care and more importantly why the DOJ should care. You are uninterested in the scenarios where both parties are drunk however if there was intercourse then the according to the DOJ guidance the male committed a sexual assault. So schools now have two choices ... 1) rigorously enforce the DOJ requirements and bring cases against a ton of their students (10+% each weekend?) ... or .... 2) make a conscious decision to selectively enforce the DOJ requirements and as a school decide what standards to use for enforcement (and risk getting hammered by the DOJ).

    I think it's great the DOJ is getting involved ... but given the feds are finally getting involved I wish they would take the lead in defining a realistic and implementable definition of consent ... instead of punting and using a simple definition that will cause issues in both directions. My guess is the current definition will result in a lot of males getting in trouble in situations that are hard to describe as rape (campuses that stick to the DOJ guidelines) ... and also a lower level of cases pursued at some schools who decide on a very lenient standard of what to pursue. The worst of both worlds ... not as many legitimate cases pursuesd as there should be ... and more false positives then they should be.
  • poetgrlpoetgrl Registered User Posts: 13,334 Senior Member
    yeah. You're right, actually.
  • ConsolationConsolation Registered User Posts: 23,020 Senior Member
    The overwhelming impression I get from the Brown case is that the accuser was in a mentally fragile state during their entire acquaintance--to put it kindly-- and that the accused would have been well advised to obey his original instinct and not have any further sexual relationship with her. She does appear to have behaved in a consistently erratic manner and constantly embellished her story, and it is unconscionable that the student activists and media outlets eagerly ran with all kinds of headline-grabbing lies, especially that the other student claimed that he also raped her. It may be that her behavior came about because of an earlier sexual assault, or was exacerbated by it. But it seems pretty clear that the accused was not responsible for her troubles, and definitely didn't rape her by any reasonable definition of the word.

    In any case, it is a good thing that he is pushing back and going public. He certainly has nothing to lose, and this kind of thing will, one hopes, result in a balancing of the procedures involved that will result in more actual justice for real victims and real predators.
  • momofthreeboysmomofthreeboys Registered User Posts: 16,677 Senior Member
    Agree, I find it sad that her life, at least for awhile in cyberspace will be connected to all this publicity. I think in some ways she was taken advantage of - and not by the young man - but all the people around her who encouraged her in her embellishments and blogging and videotaping, when they should have been helping her with her trauma, quietly. He got a years suspension but the "troops" kept on compounding the situation and I think pushing her to the extreme. It's also shameful that his name came out in the media from what should have been a confidential situation but he was between a rock and a hard place when a US Senator called him a rapist. I would have counseled the same if it were my son. He stayed quiet, but it got so absurd he had no choice but to tell Dartmouth he would not return and to turn to lawyers stop the slander. The entire situation is very, very sad and served neither person well.
  • ConsolationConsolation Registered User Posts: 23,020 Senior Member
    Brown, not Dartmouth. Poor Dartmouth has enough to deal with! :)
  • momofthreeboysmomofthreeboys Registered User Posts: 16,677 Senior Member
    Oh shoot, went to take a shower and now it's too late to edit...
  • bearpantherbearpanther Registered User Posts: 679 Member
    Reading the letter his lawyers sent to the DoE, I found it amazing how her story changed and grew and grew until Kopin was practically a murderer as well as a "brutal rapist." I'll admit I bought her story hook, line and sinker and thought he was a real dirtbag (now I just think he was foolish and exercised poor judgement). No one in the media seemed to bother to check on the details. The stuff Sclove's father said at the press conference was over the line, and I agree it is better for Kopin to come out and tell his side at this point than stay silent.

    Though, to be sure, there are those who will never believe anything he says. To some part of the world, he will always be known as that guy who nearly choked a girl to death while raping her, not to mention that he is a "serial" offender. That Senator owes him an apology, but I don't think it will ever happen.
  • 3togo3togo Registered User Posts: 5,233 Senior Member
    edited July 2014
    hmm ... I'm going to make another plunge into this thread.

    To me the rhetoric about the rape culture doesn't ring particularly true and I believe is somewhat counter productive. The more time the most people spend on trying to fix true underlying problems the more progress will be made. Arguing about rhetoric among folks who agree there is a problem doesn't really help. I'm going to try to get to this point in two steps.

    First some personal experience. I got a masters at Stanford in the 81-82 school year. That year there was a rapist on campus. There was strong reaction on campus including public meetings and demonstrations. While most of these activities at these events were pragmatic discussions about what's next (safety tips, reporting tips, development of a campus escort service, etc) there were also a few speakers talking about the misogyny on campus and how it creates an environment that encourage male students to rape ... this including a lot of talk about males "do x behaviors". The first meeting was 50/50 female/male with hundreds(?) of males ... the second meeting the ration of men was way down. Among the men the comments were the rapist would be lucky if he was caught by the police because if he got caught by a guy on campus he probably end up dead ... however at the meeting there was a lot of talk about how men where the problem. I get the anger and the hurt of the situation but bashing 50% of the folks trying to help doesn't really help. In the end the rapist was caught because one victim bit his tongue almost off and they caught him when he went to see doctor ... it was a non-student coming on campus to hunt victims. This experience was the final one when I decided to label myself as a humanist and not a feminist.

    I do get the hurt and anger. I am a parent of a daughter, my spouse is a women, one of parents is a women, my one sibling is a women, and over the last 30 years or so my best friends have mostly been women ... women are at the core of my life and the safety and well being is of the utmost importance to me. 30 years later women's issues are still among the most important to which I donate money, materials, and time ... however I still feel as a male unwelcome to help work to solutions giving the rhetoric ... and still feel more comfortable with label humanist.

    This is how I think it relates to this thread.

    There are numerous posts talking about the rape culture and about misogyny. If 20% of women have been sexually assaulted on campus and most men who assault women assault many women then a small minority of men are the problem ... and, similar the Stanford situation, I'd guess the vast majority of men believe those guilty should be caught, have something nasty done to their genitalia, and severely punished. To me there is big disconnect between rhetoric about a broken culture that corrupts (all) men and the reality of a few sick men and the lion's share of men not having an issue understanding the limits and respecting boundaries and also being appalled by the behavior.

    Similarly, to me the rhetoric referencing the rape culture and misogyny for the way campuses/schools have mishandled rapes in the past is misplaced and counter productive. I believe the schools behavior has been appalling and frankly criminal ... however, they have exhibited the exact same indifference to child molestation (Penn St), academic fraud (UNC), regular assault, robberies, etc. These are large bureaucracies that are trying to protect themselves ... in some insane way they believe hiding this stuff will protect the reputation and financial interests of the bureaucracy .... (and as history has shown a million times ultimately the cover-up is much worse for the bureaucracy than the initial issue). The cover-up mentality is the core problem of why schools have not addressed sexual assaults on campus .. they need to develop open and transparent process with folk without conflicts-of-interests involved to handle misbehavior of all types on campus. Personally, this is why I believe the DOJ becoming involved is really powerful ... they have hit all the schools over the head with a bat and woken them up about their bureaucratic stonewalling.

    Bottom line ... I believe the more time spent focused on the biggest true drivers the more progress will be made.






  • saintfansaintfan Registered User Posts: 8,274 Senior Member
    Great piece, @mamalion
This discussion has been closed.