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A Shocking Number Of The World's Rich And Powerful Attended Elite Colleges

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Replies to: A Shocking Number Of The World's Rich And Powerful Attended Elite Colleges

  • PizzagirlPizzagirl 40168 replies320 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 40,488 Senior Member
    "Asians are underrepresented among athletes and legacies, both groups that the Ivies discriminate for (which CalTech doesn't do)."

    And yet note that Caltech doesn't have the social cachet that the Ivies do. Perhaps some of you aren't aware enough that "prestige" is not perfectly correlated with "very smartest of the smart."
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  • HuntHunt 26787 replies131 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 26,918 Senior Member
    edited July 2014
    "Year after year they admit about 15% academic superstars, 40 to 60 percent hooked applicants, and the rest are lucky sperms. In the words of another poster, they make sure the school is mostly white, not too Asian, and just enough black and Hispanic. Is that not the beauty of “merit in motion”? Of course they can be different things to different people. Why not?"
    Also, these numbers are nonsense. Also, the idea that athletic recruits are the privileged is pretty funny--I guess a few of them are, but many are the exact opposite.

    Plus, don't forget that the people who generally complain about "not too Asian" don't like all those blacks and Hispanics that get special treatment. The idea that the most selective schools are limiting blacks and Hispanics to "just enough" is untrue. They'd like to get more.
    edited July 2014
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  • MayihelpMayihelp 121 replies0 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 121 Junior Member
    Cal Tech is an outstanding school. I lived on the west coast for a while so when my son expressed an interest in Stem we investigated all the top schools out there. Harvey Mudd, uCB, Stanford etc.. The research of Cal tech was alarming to us however due to their lack of black students on their campus. Obviously you can't assume that due to bring admitted to one school you would in all likelihood be admitted to another but he was admitted to every school he applied to except one. Yet is it a concern for a place like Cal Tech (Harvey Mudd has the same issues) that many qualified black kids and families may not consider such an outstanding school due to comfort zone. Is it a loss for the school that the capable and qualified student of color may give more weight to a place like MIT, Stanford, or Cornell due to a cultural comfort zone. Or is this an unavoidable consequence of location and enrollment size.
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  • PurpleTitanPurpleTitan 12656 replies29 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 12,685 Senior Member
    edited July 2014
    @Pizzagirl:

    Maybe in the conceited pretentious circles you run in, CalTech doesn't have that social cachet (I personally would rather not be around such insufferable people myself), but by alumni accomplishments, CalTech is every bit as good as HYPSM (and is better in some respects). Meaning they're better than most Ivies.

    Perhaps you're not aware enough to realize that most of us don't give a rat's ass about what your idea of prestige is.

    BTW, why do you always have to act so insecure?
    edited July 2014
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  • bookwormbookworm 8751 replies72 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 8,823 Senior Member
    I find PG to be one of the most articulate about not putting HYP on the pedestal.

    I don't think people think any less of my son for choosing STEM schools over the ivies,, and if they did, he wouldn't care.
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  • blossomblossom 9591 replies9 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 9,600 Senior Member
    In what universe is Cal Tech not prestigious? And in what universe does Cal Tech not have "social cachet" similar to or greater than Dartmouth, Brown or U Penn?
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  • PizzagirlPizzagirl 40168 replies320 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 40,488 Senior Member
    "Cal Tech is an outstanding school.:"

    Agreed; no one has said that it isn't. Of course it is.

    "The research of Cal tech was alarming to us however due to their lack of black students on their campus. Obviously you can't assume that due to bring admitted to one school you would in all likelihood be admitted to another but he was admitted to every school he applied to except one. Yet is it a concern for a place like Cal Tech (Harvey Mudd has the same issues) that many qualified black kids and families may not consider such an outstanding school due to comfort zone. "

    It seems only common sense that it would be a wise move on the part of a college administration to want to ensure a certain level of critical mass of every type of student on a campus - so they don't lose the super-qualified ones who don't want to be tokens. Some people seem not to understand that. Their loss.

    And of course, there is a complete difference between "we want to achieve more diversity" and "we want to keep X type of people out." If I recruit for my company at College A, and then decide I want to add College B to the mix, I'm not "discriminating against" College A people, even if that's the net effect.

    But whatever. The hypocrisy of "they don't admit the qualified kids!" coupled with "and I'd sell my left arm to go there / have my kid go there!" doesn't go unnoticed. Which is why no one *really* believes that some of you *really* think the kids at these schools are so very hopelessly unqualified to do anything beyond 1+1=2. If you *really* thought that, you'd have your kid avoid that place like the plague.
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  • bookwormbookworm 8751 replies72 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 8,823 Senior Member
    Blossom, I've heard many kids say they are applying to many Ivies as well as MIT or Stanford. Caltech had 6524, applications last year, somewhat more than each of the women's colleges. I imagine the teens think they would be a good fit for these schools.

    Probably redundant, but Stanford had 42,167 apps, Harvard=34,295, Yale=30,932, and MIT=18,357. (Found these stats when looking for diversity figures at Caltech, which I still haven't found.)

    I was told that Caltech would love more qualified black students, but these kids are recruited everywhere. At Caltech graduation, there was a female student who stood out because of her entourage. At least a dozen of her family were there, in full African dress and amazing jewelry. They looked like royalty.
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  • Erin's DadErin's Dad 32863 replies3607 discussionsSuper Moderator Posts: 36,470 Super Moderator
    Here is the CDS for Cal Tech which breaks out the student body by ethnicity (section B2). http://finance.caltech.edu/documents/198-cds2014_final.pdf
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  • blossomblossom 9591 replies9 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 9,600 Senior Member
    Bookworm- you are surely not suggesting that the low Cal Tech applicant numbers are due to its low prestige, are you?

    MIT has fewer than half the applicants of Stanford. My guess is that a strong math/science kid interested in EE or CS, who isn't worried about location, will apply to both. A kid interested in European History or English Lit won't apply to MIT. And a kid interested in Econ or Urban planning who can handle the GIR's at MIT (and again, without regard to location) will NOT apply to Cal Tech.

    So these numbers make perfect sense to me. You can major in anything at Stanford-- and California is a populous state to begin with. You can major in anything at Harvard-- and the fact that MIT (down the street) is getting about half the applications as Harvard does (given that you are NOT going to MIT to major in Victorian Poetry) makes perfect sense.

    But I do not look at these numbers and say, "Oh Cal Tech is so much less prestigious than these other schools". I look at these numbers and conclude that Cal Tech has a limited number of academic offerings; has a very intense concentration of math and science students, and if I'm not one of those math science types, I won't apply there".

    I'd love to know how many of the Stanford applicants are cross app's with Cal Tech. My guess is that for HS students interested in California, math/science, and heavy prestige, there is a huge overlap, despite the VERY different experience a kid will have in Pasadena.
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  • sally305sally305 7475 replies129 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 7,604 Senior Member
    In what universe is Cal Tech not prestigious? And in what universe does Cal Tech not have "social cachet" similar to or greater than Dartmouth, Brown or U Penn?

    I am about as far as can be from an Ivy worshipper, but I do think universities that have strengths in more areas and put graduates into more sectors of the economy have more social cachet among the general public. (And no, it doesn't matter.)
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  • bookwormbookworm 8751 replies72 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 8,823 Senior Member
    Blossom, you understood me. I do think Stanford & Caltech attract kids on west coast. Stanford offers every discipline, yet still is tops in STEM fields and has a great location. When I total the HYP applications, it came to 91,868. If we added in the other terrific East coast colleges, the # would be higher.

    Erin's Dad, thanks. At Caltech:
    Asians 42%
    White 30%
    Latin 10%
    Black 2%

    The "princess" I saw at the graduation would probably fall into the international group. I was surprised to see how the # of Asians has risen in past years. There are also far more from Californians than 8-10 years ago.

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  • cobratcobrat 12207 replies78 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited July 2014
    Maybe in the conceited pretentious circles you run in, CalTech doesn't have that social cachet (I personally would rather not be around such insufferable people myself), but by alumni accomplishments, CalTech is every bit as good as HYPSM (and is better in some respects). Meaning they're better than most Ivies.

    Depending on the social circles/HS school cultures one is examining, there are some which would regard schools like Caltech with far more cachet than HYP.

    However, that's not to say they're anti-elitist...far from it.

    Rather, it's a different form of elitism where Caltech/CMU/MIT/Berkeley/Stanford are regarded by senior executives/managers at hardcore engineering/tech firms as the true top schools whereas the Ivies...especially HYP tend to be regarded as "finishing schools" for future sales/marketers.

    Positions which in some hardcore engineering/tech firms tend to be regarded as dumping grounds for engineering/CS or other graduates who didn't make the supervisors'/senior tech management's cut regarding their techie cred.


    One other thing to keep in mind regarding Caltech, its total undergrad population is less than 1000 students. This makes it smaller than many LACs...not to mention elite research universities of HYPSM's ilk.
    edited July 2014
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  • PurpleTitanPurpleTitan 12656 replies29 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 12,685 Senior Member
    Yep, different circles have different views, and different schools have different philosophies and build different student bodies and cultures. Personally, I think that's a strength of the American higher educational system. Does that mean that some kid can get admitted to every school they apply to except one? Yes! But why is that bad? You can attend only one school anyway. Some schools will favor some kids over others because of certain attributes. Considering that in the US, there are usually many different paths to the same goal, it's all good. Some schools are undervalued or underappreciated. The astute kid would look for those. Some schools favor those who show them love (which is a policy I agree with, BTW, in order to build a more engaged student body and alumni base). I would say that's an advantage for the kid who's willing to put in the effort. So say you're an Asian kid with great stats but not hooks that many Ivies look for. Guess what, many LACs where Asians are underepresented would love to have you! And many of those LACs do a great job of overperforming compared to their test scores when you measure by alumni success. Some Ivy-equivalents will give you a fair shake if you show them love. Then there are some state schools that are great in certain disciplines and don't have a problem with a certain race making up a disproportionate amount of their students. Almost all of them will get you where you want to go.
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  • PizzagirlPizzagirl 40168 replies320 discussionsRegistered User Posts: 40,488 Senior Member
    "I am about as far as can be from an Ivy worshipper, but I do think universities that have strengths in more areas and put graduates into more sectors of the economy have more social cachet among the general public. (And no, it doesn't matter.)"

    Completely agree. Like it or not, among the general public Caltech is, at most, the Big-Bang-Theory-nerd school. But again, so what? Why should that deter a kid for whom Caltech is interesting / compelling? Who cares what the general public thinks? The general public also likes Miley Cyrus and Kim Kardashian. Big whoops.

    ."The astute kid would look for those. Some schools favor those who show them love (which is a policy I agree with, BTW, in order to build a more engaged student body and alumni base). I would say that's an advantage for the kid who's willing to put in the effort. So say you're an Asian kid with great stats but not hooks that many Ivies look for. Guess what, many LACs where Asians are underepresented would love to have you!"

    From your mouth to God's ears. Of course, anyone with REAL brains would go -- hey, let me find a place where I might stand out in the applicant pool, instead of crowding the applicant pool to the same old same old with 10,000 of my best friends. But, real brains aren't necessarily measured in SAT scores.



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