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BYU - So Upsetting Reading/Watching This

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Replies to: BYU - So Upsetting Reading/Watching This

  • fractalmstrfractalmstr Registered User Posts: 2,283 Senior Member
    edited May 2016
    One more try. Your position is that a private school can discriminate as it sees fit, while I oppose that view.

    If Harvard were to announce tomorrow that they will no longer admit religious students of any kind, I think the government should not provide funds for a school like that. Do you still think that is fine and the government should continue to provide funding, or does your rule only apply to religious views you like?

    So dismissing a person because they purposefully broke the rules (rules which they agreed to, by the way!) is somehow the same as not admitting religious students of any kind?

    The context is totally different in both of these cases... On one hand, the person broke the rules, and on the other, the person did nothing wrong whatsoever.

  • Much2learnMuch2learn Registered User Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    @fractalmstr No, as you can read, I am saying that organizations who do not wish to treat people of all races, genders, and religious views equally should not receive government funding.

    In contrast @awfntdb thinks private schools can adopt any religious view the wish and still recieve government funding. I am trying to understand whether he is consistent in that view, or only has that view for all groups, or only groups he likes.

    What do you think?
  • exlibris97exlibris97 Registered User Posts: 1,039 Senior Member
    To be honest, it is the woman's fault for going to a university like BYU. When you attend universities run by zealots, you can't expect much else. But I still expect a "revelation" in the near future.
  • HuntHunt Registered User Posts: 26,918 Senior Member
    If the honor code and the religion are the most important to the practitioners, then the most intelligent thing for them to do to preserve that code and religion is to enforce the honor code.

    If a legal position/outcome is more important to them than their religion, then they might look the other way re the honor code.
    I think this is a false distinction. The honor code has to be enforced with real-world procedures. Just to take an extreme example, what if a school with such an honor code expelled students based on unproven anonymous accusations? They might claim that the code was so important that any suspicion of a violation was enough to separate a potential offender. But that would be a stupid argument, right?
  • JenJenJenJenJenJenJenJen Registered User Posts: 1,116 Senior Member
    @exlibris97 Hmm, so, following through, the new BYU motto could be "BYU: You know what you're getting yourself into, ladies."
  • fractalmstrfractalmstr Registered User Posts: 2,283 Senior Member
    No, as you can read, I am saying that organizations who do not wish to treat people of all races, genders, and religious views equally should not receive government funding.

    What evidence do you have of them not treating people of all races, genders, and religious views equally here? Do you know that there is a small Muslim population at BYU?

    http://universe.byu.edu/2012/05/01/321-final-islam-at-byu/
    Hmm, so, following through, the new BYU motto could be "BYU: You know what you're getting yourself into, ladies."

    ~13,000 women attend BYU. I'm pretty sure if the school were as horrible as some people here make it out to be, they would have chosen another place to go.
  • northwestynorthwesty Registered User Posts: 3,417 Senior Member
    "I'm pretty sure if the school were as horrible as some people here make it out to be, they would have chosen another place to go."

    In 2014, Univ of Utah reported 18 rapes per federal law. Univ of Colorado/Boulder reported 24. BYU reported 1.

    Could be the honor code is suppressing a lot of reports. Or the honor code creates a very safe campus. Or some of both.
  • awcntdbawcntdb Registered User Posts: 3,553 Senior Member
    edited May 2016
    Hmm, so, following through, the new BYU motto could be "BYU: You know what you're getting yourself into, ladies."

    As any economist would ask, "As compared to what?"

    One question is: As compared to BYU, would "ladies" be better off at schools where women are claiming to routinely get drunk/stoned and then are sexually assaulted, even though their own honor code forbids alcohol and drugs on campus?

    It could easily be said that the schools, which purposely turn a blind eye to the very drinking and drugs conditions that create an environment ripe for sexual assault are the schools most dangerous to females, not the schools that enforce their honor codes after-the-fact. The BYU cases are after-the-fact, and the female broke the honor code that BYU uses to limit such possibilities.

    Therefore, it is fair to ask which schools are actually thinking more of the females in a preventive manner that would reduces sexual assault scenarios. BYU that is upfront about its no drinking and drug policies or schools who seem not to care about the behaviors, which leads to environments that foster sexual assault and then only step in after the assault has taken place?

    I do not doubt that females who choose to attend BYU factor these environmental issues into their reasons for going there.
  • awcntdbawcntdb Registered User Posts: 3,553 Senior Member
    edited May 2016
    Hmm, so, following through, the new BYU motto could be "BYU: You know what you're getting yourself into, ladies."

    This quote pretends the females who choose to attend BYU are blasé about the no alcohol, no drugs, no sex policies etc. I bet all the females know that the honor code is strictly enforced regardless.

    Therefore, the post only postures as if it is saying something that pretends to warn all females, when it is a rather targeted in its audience. More specifically, the post only applies to females who want special treatment after they break the rules and also find themselves in deeper issues, such as being raped or physically assaulted.
  • awcntdbawcntdb Registered User Posts: 3,553 Senior Member
    In contrast [@awcntdb] thinks private schools can adopt any religious view the wish and still recieve government funding.

    You need to stop saying things that no one has implied or said. And you clearly do not get the gist of this thread.

    The BYU case is not really about religious views; it is actually about an honor code being enforced. More to the point, the question of this thread is whether an honor code should be applied to an alleged victim of a crime. It is not BYU's religious views that are in question; it is its blanket application of its honor code, irrespective of what the views/beleifs in that code are.
  • HuntHunt Registered User Posts: 26,918 Senior Member
    Hold on a minute, @awcntdb ...didn't you just argue that to BYU, the honor code might be more important for religious reasons than legal niceties? Either this is about religion, or it isn't. Personally, I don't see why it has to be about religion at all...which is why I predict that BYU will eventually explain that its policy never intended to punish students for violations revealed solely by their own reporting of more serious violations. They probably won't need to change any policy, but simply remind those enforcing the rules of this point.
  • awcntdbawcntdb Registered User Posts: 3,553 Senior Member
    edited May 2016
    Hold on a minute, @awcntdb ...didn't you just argue that to BYU, the honor code might be more important for religious reasons than legal niceties? Either this is about religion, or it isn't. ....Personally, I don't see why it has to be about religion at all...

    Yes, I did state that BYU's "honor code might be more important for religious reasons than legal niceties," but that is quite different than saying that a school can adopt any religious view that it wants and still receive federal funding. We know that is not the case for, I believe, Bob Jones University lost its federal funding over its ban on interracial dating.

    To your point, it is not a "religious view" to take your religion's vows seriously and to enforce them. That is just a fact, or else, one would not take those vows. No more so than people are expected to adhere to their marriage vows; marriage vows too are not just a "view."

    Specifically, it does not matter what is in the honor code as it pertains to any religious beliefs or BYU's religious views. In fact, it is not BYU's religion in question at all; it is whether others think that law, or as you put it, "legal niceties" supersede honor codes (religious based or not) in general. And that when it comes to honor code violations, as experienced by BYU, that honor codes should take a back seat to legal matters.
    Personally, I don't see why it has to be about religion at all...

    I agree.
  • momofthreeboysmomofthreeboys Registered User Posts: 16,676 Senior Member
    It was never about religion and always about the vows and whether the college should look the other way if a vow violation during an investigation about a complaint is discovered. It is not about religion. All colleges should be looking at every aspect of an assault accusation...the difference is that BYU has behavioral expectations for ALL students ALL the time without question. In my opinion it is may be the reverse of the Yale speculation. Many are speculating that the yale basektball player has "other violations" not related to the night of the accusation and that is the compelling reason he is expelled. If BYU uncovers evidence that an accuser has previously violated these vows I think that is fair to act upon those breaches separate from the accusation issue. On the other hand I could support BYU not punishing an accuser for events related only to the moment/day/night in question especially in cases where there is a criminal investigation underway.
  • exlibris97exlibris97 Registered User Posts: 1,039 Senior Member
    In this case, for the young woman involved, the good news is that she has been offered admission to other universities. She has also served to make this a national issue. People and the government are looking at religiously affiliated universities in a much harsher light. That's good. You need look no further than the child abuse scandal affecting the Catholic and other churches to know that these institutions do not apply their values, principles and behavioural expectations universally.
  • hebegebehebegebe Registered User Posts: 2,655 Senior Member
    That is not remotely comparable. Nobody here is suggesting that a Mormon leader committed the alleged crime.
This discussion has been closed.