Are More Selective Colleges More Academically Difficult?

Saint68 · March 2017

Hi everyone. I'm a Dad of 3, the oldest is just starting her college search. I'm interested in your opinions about whether more selective schools are also more rigorous and academically challenging in the classroom.

I always figured this was sort of obvious - of course <insert highly selective school> will be more challenging to a given student than <insert less selective school>. This has led me to think that many kids will struggle if they attend the most selective school to which they are accepted (sidebar: if true this flies in face of much of the college admission machinery which seems largely concerned with getting a student into the most selective school possible for that kid... just my take).

I've made this point to a number of people and I'm surprised by how often the response is something along the lines of, "all colleges are equally difficult" or, "XYZ college is very hard to GET INTO, that doesn't mean it's any HARDER to excel once you enroll."

I get that I'm painting with a broad brush here but you see what I'm asking. I could definitely see this issue affecting how I coach my kids in their college search. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

thumper1 · March 2017

More selective colleges admit more highly competitive applicants. But that doesn't mean their coursework is necessarily harder.

For example...a student taking calculus someplace is likely to encounter a very similar level of difficulty. Ditto lots of other courses.

Indignantfan · March 2017

I think this is a great question and one that bears significant consideration, particularly based on your individual child and their willingness to work very hard at a more selective (and yes, that undoubtedly translates into a more competitive and often more rigorous) college program. I have two sons that attended the same high school. One excelled there and is now at a very tough college where he is working very hard to do decently, although he's not a 4.0 student there. He enjoys learning and studies hard and welcomes the challenge. He wouldn't mind a bit more balance in his life, but he's there to be a student. My other son is attending a less rigorous, less selective institution that was his choice. He could have gone to a more competitive school but he feels this is the right fit for him, and he is excelling without as much work as my older son. A friend asked me my opinion about where her kids should attend college if they know they want to go to Med School. I have heard that Med Schools don't pay as much attention to the undergraduate institution as to the GPA, so if Med School is the goal, it makes sense to get a good education at an okay school but not push yourself into the most selective school you got into, since the GPA is likely to reflect that more competitive environment. Basically, it's a judgement based on what your kids are like, what they want, and where they're going with their degree ultimately.

DiotimaDM · March 2017

My undergrad degree is from a directional university, so I can't speak from direct experience about whether a highly selective school would have been more difficult or more challenging. I can, however, tell you that my MA and PHD schools were top level. I never felt underprepared. Based on my interactions with / the performance of my fellow students, I'd say my directional degree was every bit as rigorous as that of my Ivy-level classmates.

That said, I was a driven student. I double majored, I took honors classes, I engaged fully and deeply with the material. I went to office hours, I asked for extra reading, etc. Basically, I went above and beyond.

I guess I wouldn't go so far as to say that all colleges are equally difficult, but I think the differences are mostly smaller rather than larger. A driven student can get an excellent education at a wide variety schools.

ucbalumnus · March 2017

While there may be a general correlation between admission selectivity and academic rigor, it is not necessarily true for any specific schools.

Also, some schools have a range of options for some courses. Frosh/soph level math is a common example. Many colleges have the standard sequence of single variable calculus, multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations. But more selective colleges are more likely to offer honors versions (in a few cases, their only offerings are like honors versions elsewhere), while less selective colleges are more likely to offer lower level courses (e.g. calculus for business majors, math-light for graduation requirement) and/or remedial/developmental courses (e.g. precalculus). A large school with a wide range of students may offer both honors versions and lower level and developmental/remedial courses because the tails of its student range are large enough fill all of those courses.

HImom · March 2017

I'd say "it depends." If there is a bell-shaped curve at the school AND the folks in the school are all more motivated higher-achievers than otherwise, SOME folks will have to be at different points of the curve, so yes, I'd imagine it would be tougher. If the profs and school figure that everyone is like Lake Woebegone and everyone is above average, then they may assign grades accordingly.

My kids went to a competitive private U--S said there were some very brilliant people there but he did better there in his engineering GPA than he did in HS (which was a competitive private HS). Some kids thrive in competition while others fold under it.

MinnesotaDadof3 · March 2017

Malcolm Gladwell, in his book "Outliers" I believe, recommends that students attend a college or university where they would place in the top one-third of their cohorts. Doing so places them on the path to success, he argues. This is worth pondering as college choices are considered.

Highly selective colleges/universities usually admit students on more than just their academic abilities, rejecting many students with 4.0 GPAs and a 35 or 36 on the ACT and, instead, admitting that lacrosse player with the 3.6 GPA and a 30 ACT. But I generally wouldn't desire to be that 3.5 GPA/27 ACT student attending where the average ACT is 33.

AroundHere · March 2017

I think they can be more academically difficult, but aren't always so.

There are probably easy/hard majors and hard/easy classes at any college. At the selective school I attended, education was considered an easy major, for example. Some majors pride themselves on being the toughest majors on campus, and at my school that was physics.

Some elite schools have a real pressure cooker reputation, but not all do. Some schools take stress reduction seriously and others consider it a rite of passage.

There are kids working their tails off who are having the time of their lives at school. Others are glad to be somewhere where classes are more manageable, and there is more time for extracurricular activities or earning money. Your child needs to think about what they want before they can recognize a school that offers the right environment for them.

I know that my kid really gained a lot of insight when she got a chance to sit in on classes or talk to students individually or in a small group.

twogirls · March 2017

I think it depends on the major and on the school. Enginering at a less selective school is still going to be difficult.

toomanyteens · March 2017

@thumper1 which begs the question why pay big bucks for the more selective school if you have other options?

megan12 · March 2017

I would say "yes" those more selective schools would overall and generally speaking have a harder, more rigorous curriculum than other schools because the students there are at a higher level of intelligence. They are thinking on a different level than the average student, which is why there are gifted and honors programs in schools and colleges.

I'm not sure why the people you spoke to would think otherwise - maybe it's because students usually attend colleges that are at their academic level so even if you go to a less selective college, it will seem just as rigorous. But if they attended a more selective college, they could easily fall behind because the material, although similar at both colleges, would be taught at a much faster yet in-depth pace. It's like putting an average student into an honors program, basically. The material may be similar, but it's taught differently because the intelligence level of the student is different.

jonri · March 2017

One thing nobody seems to have mentioned yet is the level of support. My D went to a top U for which she was very well prepared by having attended a competitive NYC magnet. She had a few friends or acquaintances who really struggled. Invariably, somebody stepped in and suggested they see a tutor. There are free tutors for writing, math and science, foreign language, etc. These are often full time professional tutors. Many classes also have undergrads who recently took and aced the course and are invited by profs to tutor. No pay, but it's an honor to be selected and the profs track their progress.

There's other support too.

Top Us really expect and want everyone to graduate and they devote substantial resources to making that happen. Some other colleges really don't. Tutoring, when available, can cost a small fortune. And it can be tough to FIND a good tutor.

A big difference though is that at some top colleges, the student doesn't have to come to the realization (s)he needs help himself. When the first assignments are handed back, profs or the graduate TA will TELL students they need help and how to get it.

toomanyteens · March 2017

@jonri So far my children have toured a number of colleges at a number of selectivity levels and that seems to be pretty much a given for all schools we have seen from the middle of the road to the most selective schools

CottonTales · March 2017

If you mean harder to excel, as in getting high grades, I would say yes since you would be competing against higher achievers for grades that are curved.

hs2015mom · March 2017

I think class pace and rigor increase with selectivity. And for any classes graded on a curve, it's harder to get good grades in a class where everyone is extremely capable.

cobrat · March 2017

My impression from my own experience and comparing notes with friends and colleagues attending a range of colleges is that while there's slightly higher workload/rigor on average, it's nowhere near what most people assume from the admissions difficulty/selectivity.

Notable exceptions of colleges known for its high workloads in both quantity and rigor are MIT/Caltech/CMU, Harvey Mudd, Georgia Tech, UChicago, Reed, Swarthmore, Cornell(Engineering and A & S....especially natural sciences), etc.

And even then, it is very YMMV. For instance, none of my Cornell attending relatives...including one currently attending engineering or two others* majoring in a natural science...one as a pre-med felt it was very difficult/demanding. Same with most HS classmates. However, even they would admit they're aberrations rather than the norm.

* One recent graduate within the last year and another who's an MD.

Malcolm Gladwell, in his book "Outliers" I believe, recommends that students attend a college or university where they would place in the top one-third of their cohorts. Doing so places them on the path to success, he argues. This is worth pondering as college choices are considered.

I went against that recommendation and attended an LAC where my HS GPA placed me well within the bottom 25% or less of the admitted students. Even my father* was concerned enough to try dissuading me from accepting the admissions offer even with its FA/scholarship package which made it cheaper to attend than my local public colleges at the time.

I ignored all that and actually found the workload there to not only be manageable even with maxing out my semester load and working a part-time job, but the overall experience to be far easier than HS.

To this day, I still wished my HS academic rigor/pacing was like that I experienced in undergrad at that LAC or the graduate classes I took at an Ivy as it meant I wouldn't have been consigned to being the academic dunce in HS.

* My LAC was very well known and respected in my father's country of origin among the educated even when he was a young child in the '40s. .

But more selective colleges are more likely to offer honors versions (in a few cases, their only offerings are like honors versions elsewhere), while less selective colleges are more likely to offer lower level courses (e.g. calculus for business majors, math-light for graduation requirement) and/or remedial/developmental courses (e.g. precalculus).

YMMV. For instance, I know for a fact precalc was offered at Harvard and peer colleges....though not always for credit.

Also, Harvard offers different levels of intro math courses such as the famous/infamous math 55 course or stats*.

Incidentally, most colleges IME which explicitly offer honors courses separate from regular ones tended to be the less selective institutions though there are exceptions within the elite colleges as mentioned above.

* Harvard offered differing intro stats courses for math, engineering/pre-med/natural sciences, and Econ/everyone else. And they are counted for fulfilling graduate level stats requirements as I saw several grad students taking those courses to fulfill a skill requirement.

PurpleTitan · March 2017

No absolutes, and some majors like engineering have fair high minimum requirements everywhere, but in general, there is a correlation between selectivity and rigor. Arguably, that correlation isn't so great once you get to the top 100-200 (including most state flagships) or so since the professors there will be at a high enough level that those who want to be challenged will be challenged.

But is the rigor of regular CS classes at a school with open admissions going to be as high as at MIT/Caltech/Ivies/equivalents/top CS schools like Cal/UIUC? Er, no.

Scipio · March 2017

From what I observed of my daughters who both attended highly selective colleges vs. my own experience at middle of the road colleges is that the material in similar courses is much the same. They may even being using the same text books. But the workload was noticeably greater at the selective schools. More reading. Bigger problem sets. And the whole thing just seemed move faster - no time spent in class explaining stuff to the laggards. At the selective schools you were expected do whatever it took to keep up with that train - because it has left the station and it is not going to slow down.

Otterma · March 2017

I made the horrible mistake of assuming that college would be a breeze since I was at the top of the range for the admitted students at the public university I attended and I had attended the most rigorous high school in the state. Life has a way of smacking down that kind of arrogance.

At larger universities, the most difficult courses and the students in those classes will be on par with anyone. The difference probably comes at very small, less selective colleges where there may not be enough advance students available to fill super challenging classes.

PurpleTitan · March 2017

To build on what @cobrat said:
It's more that the distribution of rigor looks different from the distribution in selectivity.
Thus rigor at a flagship with a 60% admit rate may be closer to an Ivy/equivalent with a <10% admit rate than it is to some schools with a 90% admit rate.

bclintonk · March 2017

^ Actually, the median GPA tends to be significantly higher at most highly selective schools. At Brown, for example, the median grade is now an A-. At most public universities, the median grade is considerably lower. That doesn't mean Brown is "easier." Brown has great students, and most of them take their studies seriously, work hard, and do well in their classes, and they're rewarded with great grades. If there's a "curve" it's an extremely high one, but for the most part there's no artificial curve; the professors feel they know good work when they see it, and they grade accordingly. Take the typical Brown student out of Brown and place her at another school, and she'd likely do just as well, even with a rigorous curve.

There is a cultural difference. At many less selective schools you'll find more of a "sink or swim" approach: the school provides the classroom instruction, but the expectation is that it's up to the individual student to make the best of it, and many may stumble and fall by the wayside. At the most selective schools, the expectation is that everyone will succeed, not only by meeting minimum standards but by excelling in their studies. They strive for a 100% four-year graduation rate. They expect to launch all, or nearly all of their students into successful careers or the most competitive graduate schools. And as jonri pointed out (post #11), the most selective schools invest heavily in academic support services to help everyone succeed. That, combined with lower s/f ratios, smaller classes, and more accessible professors (especially at LACs more so than research U's) may actually make it easier for some students to succeed academically at highly selective schools. But it depends on the individual. Some people don't need that kind of hand-holding and can soar academically even in the relative anonymity and sink-or-swim milieu of a large public university

Are More Selective Colleges More Academically Difficult?

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