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## Replies to: Better Ed or Math Dept for teaching?

12,285Senior MemberOne thing to also keep in mind is that some states require all teachers to have a Masters in Education after a certain point so some folks like several college classmates ended up entering the teaching profession by going for an M.Ed...especially at topflight Ed schools like Teacher's College or Harvard GSE.

Others, especially in areas with math/STEM teacher shortages have special programs(Boston and NYC are some) to fast-track those who have worked in STEM fields(i.e. engineers, quant-heavy areas of finance, etc) to become math/STEM teachers. No prior Ed school experience required.

297Junior Member62,990Senior Member12,285Senior MemberIn many cases, she may be able to get some statistics in within her math department considering statistics is an off-shoot of the math department and at some colleges, offered through it (no separate statistics department).

12,375Senior Member2,810Senior Member63,509Senior MemberYou absolutely need to check the "reciprocity" from state to state. You make it sound easy peasy....and it's not. I know folks who have had to retake the praxis tests in new states, and sometimes even had to take additional college courses. Sometimes...not all the time...but sometimes...they were given provisional or temporary certification.

If a state requires degrees in math to become certified in math...and your daughter doesn't have this...she will have even more hoops jump through.

She needs a good math program AND a good education program.

873MemberI recommend a liberal arts major-- in your case, math. Depending on your state's requirements, this may or may not be necessary for employment-- but how do you want to spend your undergraduate years-- bored or engaged? I think most education courses are mostly nonsense and do nothing to help you learn how to teach. Trust me, I have taken a lot of them, and not one graduate education class was as interesting as my least interesting class in the liberal arts as an undergrad. I can honestly say I can't think of more than a handful of things I learned in education school that actually helped me in the classroom as a teacher or as administrator. I have been in my career since 1993. Student teaching and internships, however, provide valuable practice, experience, and mentoring.

Here is what you need: you need to make sure you will have access to a good student teaching program. The more supportive the supervision, the better-- none of those 'we'll chat with you online to supervise you' programs, which are really terrible. Ideally you will have a community in which you can reflect on on your experiences in student teaching and learn from and with one another.

And you need to find out which education courses are required for certification in the state in which you want to be employed, and take those. Being part of program that includes direct certification, as opposed to having to prove you've met the requirements independently, is easier.

So, if you want to major in math, make sure that you do one of the following:

1. Pick a college in which you simultaneously can complete your teaching certification requirements, including student teaching.

OR

2. Go to graduate school to pick up your master's degree and certification simultaneously. If you teach in certain states, you will be required to get a master's degree eventually anyway. If you can afford it-- and that is a big IF for a lot of people, who need to be employed sooner-- it is easier to do your master's work before you are busy teaching during the day, writing lesson plans and grading at night, coaching or leading a club, and involved in evening committees at your place of employment.

Good luck!

1,937Senior Member12,285Senior Member@TheGreyKing

What you wrote above is almost exactly how most of my K-12 teacher friends described their undergrad/grad Ed school classes. They all viewed it as a mandatory ticket that had to be punched and found nearly all of what they learned in those classes....especially educational/pedagogical theory to be impractical at best once they started student-teaching and moreso...once they became full-time teachers.

And the more years of teaching experience they've had, the more they felt it confirmed their assessment about the classes*. The one exception to that was the student-teaching and mentoring from veteran teachers who knew the realities of the ground and gave them valuable tips on what to retain from their ed school classes and what to discard/take with substantial tankers of salt.

* One is currently in her 12th year of teaching and on track to being the next chairperson of her HS's math department once the incumbent chair retires.

297Junior Member@thumper1 - I know it won't be easy going from state to state for new teaching licensure/creds, I apologize if I made it sound like that. My brother and cousin and both teachers/admins so I am having them weigh in on all aspects of this journey, including jumping state to state.

She will definitely major in Math, that much is certain. We will just make sure that the education department at the school of her choosing has plenty of outside the classroom experience as well.

Thanks again for everyone weighing in!

4New MemberThere is a reason why Mathematics majors and Mathematics professors are frustrated at the decline of math competence in the US: ED schools.

31,520Senior MemberDevelopmental psychology, History of Education, and History of your subject are all essential context (in the same way premed pre-reqs include Physics, English, Psychology). Subject methodology is CRUCIAL to teaching efficiently. Student teaching with observation and group discussion also.

BTW just because some states have laughable requirements doesn't mean all do; one way to change that is to organize a state-wide group including not just parents but also teachers, school administrators and professors in the subject to increase the subject content requirements.

For example, these are the requirements in Minnesota:

MATH 1271/1371/1571H Calculus I

MATH 1272/1372/1572H Calculus II

MATH 2243/2373/2574H Linear algebra and differential equations

MATH 2263/2374/2573H Multivariable calculus and vector analysis

MATH 2283/3283W Sequences, series and foundations

+ 2 from the following:

Theoretical Algebra

MATH 4281 Introduction to Modern Algebra

MATH 5248 Cryptology and Number Theory

MATH 5251 Error-correcting Codes, Finite Fields, Algebraic Curves

MATH 5285H Honors: Fundamental Structures of Algebra I

MATH 5286H Honors: Fundamental Structures of Algebra II

MATH 5385 Introduction to Computational Algebraic Geometry

Applied Algebra

MATH 4242 Applied Linear Algebra

MATH 5705 Enumerative Combinatorics

MATH 5707 Graph Theory and Non-enumerative Combinatorics

MATH 5711 Linear Programming and Combinatorial Optimization

MATH 5485 Introduction to Numerical Methods I

+ 2 from this list

Analysis List

MATH 4567 Fourier Analysis

MATH 4603 Advanced Calculus I

MATH 4604 Advanced Calculus II

MATH 5486 Introduction to Numerical Methods II

MATH 5525 Introduction to Ordinary Differential Equations

MATH 5535 Dynamical Systems and Chaos

MATH 5583 Complex Analysis

MATH 5587 Elementary Partial Differential Equations I

MATH 5588 Elementary Partial Differential Equations II

MATH 5615 Honors: Introduction to Analysis I

MATH 5616 Honors: Introduction to Analysis II

MATH 5651 Basic Theory of Probability and Statistics

STAT 5101 (equivalent to MATH 5651)

MATH 5652 Stochastic Processes

MATH 5654 Prediction and Filtering

+ Combinatorics + Probability + Geometry I.

In New York State

A.

Single-variable Calculus; Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations; computer literacy; Advanced linear algebra

B.

• MAT 200 Language, Logic, and Proof;

• MAT 312 Applied Algebra OR MAT 313 Abstract Algebra

• MAT 319 Foundations of Analysis OR MAT 320 Introduction to Analysis

• MAT 336 History of Mathematics

• MAT 360 Geometric Structures

• AMS 310 Probability and Statistics.

C. Professional educational requirements:

1. MAE 301 Foundations of Secondary School Mathematics

2. MAE 302 Methods and Materials for Teaching Secondary School Mathematics

3. MAE 311 Introduction to Methods of Teaching Secondary School Mathematics

4. MAE 312 Micro-Teaching

5. MAE 447 Directed Readings in Mathematics Education

6. PSY 327 Human Growth and Development in the Educational Context

7. SSE 350 Foundations of Education

8. CEF 347 Introduction to Special Education

9. LIN 344 Language Acquisition and Literacy Development

10. MAE 451 Supervised Teaching - Grades 7-9

11. MAE 452 Supervised Teaching--Grades 10-12

12. MAE 454 Student Teaching Seminar

297Junior Member12,375Senior Member