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535 Students....or 3 Football coaches?

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Replies to: 535 Students....or 3 Football coaches?

  • northwestynorthwesty Registered User Posts: 2,746 Senior Member
    edited September 13
    "So, to think the hundreds and hundreds,of college players have NBA value is a pointless argument to me."

    That estimate does not purport to say that the college players have NBA value, since college teams don't have anywhere near NBA-level revenue. Which is the point -- if college teams don't have NBA-level revenue why/how can they pay college coaches at the NBA level?

    FYI, the average NBA salary is $5 million and the median is $2.2 million. Also, obviously, Duke and Lville player values would be at the very top. Players from Whatev State would be worth a lot less -- since the revenues at Whatev would be lower than at Duke and Lville. The report says the D1 average player value would be $296k fyi.

    But you have to see and agree about what is going on. Those average/median NBA salaries are driven by a CBA that says players get 49% of revenue.

    If you apply the 49% to Duke, its total payroll would be $16.55 million. Maybe college players should only get 25% -- that would be $8.44 million payroll. Or maybe just 10% -- that would be $3.38 million. Using $70k as the annual scholarship value at Duke, their actual payroll cost is $910k. That's 2.69% of revenues for 13 guys together. Pimps pay way better than that!

    Meanwhile Coach K's salary alone is 28.7% of revenues. One guy. Who couldn't dunk to save his life...
  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 1,080 Senior Member
    edited September 13
    The average college basketball player at Duke University would be worth $1.3 million per year if they were able to play in a free market system and receive compensation in a manner similar to that of the NBA.

    The article purports to calculate the FMV of a college player, if they were paid in a similar manner to that of the NBA. The problem with this logic is that only one or two players on the best teams (Duke, Kentucky, UCLA, MSU, Louisville, etc.) in college play in the NBA. Everyone else on the college team is valued at FMV of zero. Maybe 1-2 players earn all the money, IF AND ONLY IF, they earn a spot on an NBA roster. The other 11 players on Duke or whatever U aren't of any NBA value. I don't buy the logic of the article.

    Coach K gets paid what the market is willing to pay. He's coached in the Olympics and won gold and he's won multiple championships at Duke. Plus, he attracts value to Duke, because potential student applicants want to be a part of the "Cameron Crazies." His worth is beyond the value of just a coaching contract.
  • EyeVeeeEyeVeee Registered User Posts: 487 Member
    I think the topic has probably run its course...but regarding Duke and BB....you realize they have the #1, #6, and #7 recruits in the country this year as Freshman (plus one in the teens). KY is similar. Those three kids alone would be worth up to $15M in the open market if they could go to the NBA based on the rookie salary slots (since the rankings in effect are determinate of value ... for example, they buy insurance based on them...so they aren't just theoretical). Grayson Allen and a few of the other potential draft kids at Duke have to push the value of the players to $20M. $1.3M is probably fair, including the half dozen who are near zero. Nobody in a free market system is worth zero, since all teams need a bench.
  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 1,080 Senior Member
    No, I don't follow Duke bball THAT closely. I assume that they get the top recruits, along with Kentucky and a few other colleges, every year.

    A bench player in the NBA can make a huge amount of money, say like Andre Iguodala, who got close to $50MM for 3 years. But if a bench player in college cannot play in the NBA, then a college player on the bench has zero FMV value in terms of NBA. None. They do get a free education, free room and board, free tutors, free shoes, free medical, free travel, free exposure to professional scouts, monetary stipend, etc. So, that in it of itself has value and every player in the team has that value.

    And do you think that these Duke recruits could have been drafted into the NBA this year? Like where in the draft? That's rhetorical. Would an NBA team be willing to risk a draft pick on a high school player? Maybe, maybe not. Very few high school players have made it to the NBA, before the rule took effect, but that will probably change now the G League looks successful.

    60 players are drafted every year, plus some free agents. And more and more are coming from overseas. But there's about 10,000 college basketball players. I still don't buy the argument that you can take a simple average when only a select few make it to the NBA.

    Grayson Allen has hurt his value over the years, by tripping opposing players on the court among other issues. He has NBA value, but he's in "repair mode" now. But he definitely got a 4-year Duke education and free living for 4 years.

    You're right, the discussion has run its course.
  • northwestynorthwesty Registered User Posts: 2,746 Senior Member
    Sush -- my last post.

    I think you protest far too much.

    The concept of paying a college coach big bucks is that it is a business and the teams generate a lot of revenue. So it makes sense that he gets paid a lot.

    If it is a business, then you have to concede that the players should get a cut of the revenue too. We don't have metrics for how much that should be, obvi, because of the NCAA. Pro metrics are the NBA players get 49% of revenue, NFL 47-48%, MLB 48.5-51.7%.

    Maybe college teams are more like minor league pro teams and so the rev share should be lower. Maybe 35%? 25%? 15%? Certainly it has to be something more than the 2.7% that the Dookies get.

    So Duke's margins are fattened because they have cartel-like NCAA rules that cap player comp. And where do you think those margins go to? It is obvious.

    Cheers.
  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 1,080 Senior Member
    My apologies but I just remembered something about Duke bball.

    Coach K has a notorious reputation for a "short rotation." Which means, for those that don't know, is that he plays very few players (of the 12-13 players total) in games and leaves a bunch of players on the bench the whole game. So, many of those bench players are there for practice and their value as practice players is how much? And that's Duke, one of the best college teams year in year out.
  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 1,080 Senior Member
    edited September 13
    @northwesty You can't assign a professional $ value to a college player who will never play professionally.

    Hopefully, and I don't know this, at some of the money that successful football and basketball programs earn each year goes to support other sports at their respective colleges that don't create the same revenue stream that football and basketball do such as gymnastics, wrestling, baseball, lacrosse, field hockey, etc.

    I'll try to move on. Sorry, I just think most college student athletes do get a good deal, all things considered, but for the rare athlete who is robbed of his millions.
  • barronsbarrons Registered User Posts: 24,577 Senior Member
    Easily one of the dumbest waste of electrons threads here in a long time. Not happening. Move on.
  • NashvilletoTexasNashvilletoTexas Registered User Posts: 146 Junior Member
    Yes -- let's line up every job and vote on how much it should get paid, and that becomes the salary. Better yet, let's test our 6 year olds and decide what they should do and stop wasting all of society's time and money teaching them things they never need to know.

    Get a grip people.

    It's not a perfect system, a free market economy allows everyone to make the most of their skills and abilities, and allows people to spend their wealth on what they want..a lottery ticket and 6 packs of cigarettes, a $100 bottle of wine, or a front row college football ticket. We probably don't agree with how everyone else, individuals and institutions, spends their money, but that's the cost of the freedom that you have to control your own investments.

    And another thing...

    If anyone thinks that there is a horrible injustice being done to college athletes based on "forcing them" to go to college and get paid no more than their scholarship and benefits, which are below free-market value, then there is nothing stopping you from resolving the situation. Seriously. Start a professional football league that recruits kids straight out of high school every year. Pay them $100K and up. Hire coaches, build facilities, sell tickets, and market your league. When you start raking in the cash and increasing the player salaries, you can come back and say "I told you so", as well as patting yourself on the back for saving all of these kids from university slavery. Then you can get started on the lucrative tv contracts for your professional women's water polo league.

    The opportunity is there for you. Put up your cash and prove that college athletes aren't getting fair market value. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
  • northwestynorthwesty Registered User Posts: 2,746 Senior Member
    "Yes -- let's line up every job and vote on how much it should get paid, and that becomes the salary."

    Nash -- you realize that the coach compensation is determined by the free market; because college sports is a business.

    But the players salaries are capped. Not because the players aren't worth something more. But because the schools got together and (to invent a phrase) "voted on how much it should get paid, and that becomes the salary."

    : )

  • tutumom2001tutumom2001 Registered User Posts: 557 Member
    If we cap the coaches' salaries, then what incentive do they have to perform better? How many SEC coaches are being paid big bucks (because SEC coaches comprise 10 of the top 25 highest-paid college football coaches) in the small glimmer of hope that one of them can form a team that will beat 'Bama and Nick Saban?

    This thread has lost the main point of the OP - that many big-time sports programs are paying off at least one football coach (if not more) hoping to find the golden ticket that will lead the team to a national championship. Coach K and Nick Saban shouldn't be included in the discussion as they have more than proved their worth to their respective teams.

    IMO what we should be discussing is what is the market value of a coach who DOESN'T win?
  • EyeVeeeEyeVeee Registered User Posts: 487 Member
    @tutumom2001 - What we should be discussing is the impact across all colleges if the spending on athletics was reduced. In aggregate, athletics lose money for their colleges. They are an important aspect of social and educational life for students, but they are not a necessary aspect of alumnae and adult life. Students are paying for dozens of losing programs, many of them with loans.

    Alabama football and Duke basketball are profitable, but most programs are not, and compete in vain to build programs by "competing" the only way they know how....throw money at the problem.

    The foxes are guarding the hen house, and those with the power to make changes don't out of selfishness and self-preservation.

    To return to the first post.... If your family owned UT football, would you be OK with paying 2 coaches who were long since gone but found loop-holes to make even more money than when you fired them? You would be irate, and would make sure it never happened again. Nobody owns these expenditures on a campus, and so in the name of competition schools dig deeper and deeper holes that they can never fill.
  • tutumom2001tutumom2001 Registered User Posts: 557 Member
    edited September 14
    "If your family owned UT football, would you be OK with paying 2 coaches who were long since gone but found loop-holes to make even more money than when you fired them?"

    What you have failed to realize is that just because you reduce expenses in the football program doesn't mean that you are going to have more money for academics. If you owned a business and decided to downsize the IT department, are you going to spend your savings on tuition reimbursements for graphic artists? Probably not. If you owned a business and knew you could pay off an employee who was just sitting around and not making anything and hire another in his place who was more productive and bringing in more revenue for your business, would you do it? Probably.
  • NashvilletoTexasNashvilletoTexas Registered User Posts: 146 Junior Member
    edited September 14
    @northwesty --yes -- my opening (sarcastic) comment was exactly about what we shouldn't do with coaches...the free market is working fine.

    And, as far as player "salaries", you missed my point -- the compensation that they are getting today far outweighs what they could get on the free market as players. They are not underpaid a cash value -- they are overpaid based on their value as players alone. If not, you could start up that 18-22 y/o league and pay them more. But based on their value as student athletes as part of the greater school vision/mission/image, they are apparently compensated exactly what the market will bear (in the form of their scholarships), which is more, not less, than they could make outside of the university system.
  • sushirittosushiritto Registered User Posts: 1,080 Senior Member
    I thought I'd google what the stipend is for scholarship athletes. I found this article on the SEC:

    https://www.seccountry.com/sec/how-the-new-ncaa-player-stipends-are-impacting-sec-football-recruiting

    TN is $5,666 in addition to the free education, free room and board, free travel, free shoes and clothes, etc.
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