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Confederate battle flag fliers posted at American University

24

Replies to: Confederate battle flag fliers posted at American University

  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    Yes, you're right re: racism. But I'd think you'd agree that no one likes to be told that what they've believed in for most of their life is evil, the example being confederate figures representing *some* semblance of admirable characteristics (along with reprehensible ones).

    Wouldn't a mid-ground position be something along on the lines of, ok the statues can stay, but please let the message be that it is kept because of the good things and not the bad. Everyone is human; no one is perfect. How one rises above one's imperfections is part of how one shows one's character.

    [edited to fix typo]
    edited September 2017
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  • alhalh 8500 replies47 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    No - the statues can not stay.

    Even my 92 year old friend, and 88 year old friend, whose family backgrounds epitomize the "old south" say the statues can't stay. They are extremely proud of their grandchildrens' efforts toward the removal of the statues.

    Watching young parents bringing their children, on a sort of pilgrimage to the site, the day after a statue is removed is very moving to me. There is some good history being made around here lately. I really try to concentrate on that.
    edited September 2017
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  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    So no middle ground since the battlelines are purely on racist fronts?
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  • doschicosdoschicos 21971 replies232 threads Senior Member
    When you read about the history and context of when and why most of those statutes were erected, what are the "good things"? Sincerely interested in knowing.
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  • alhalh 8500 replies47 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    I am not aware of a statue in a public space that was not erected for intimidation purposes. I am always happy to be corrected. I know the history of the statues we are taking down where I live now and the ones coming down in my childhood home town.


    Cemeteries, especially private family ones, are a diffent story. imho
    edited September 2017
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  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    Sorry, I can't elucidate any point due to my ignorance of the situation. I am not of the belief that some compromise situation can't be found but I have been wrong before. I have a family story that involves national discrimination against those with my background but things have moved on. At least there is hope for full reconciliation. For us here, its too polarized for me to feel the same way.
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  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 13212 replies247 threads Senior Member
    “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.”

    http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments
    There are more than 700 Confederate monuments and statues on public property throughout the country, the vast majority in the South.

    The study identified 718 monuments. The majority (551) were dedicated or built prior to 1950. More than 45 were dedicated or rededicated during the civil rights movement, between the U.S. Supreme Court’s school desegregation decision in 1954 and the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in 1968. The survey counted 32 monuments and other symbols that were dedicated or rededicated in the years since 2000.

    Many of these are memorials to Confederate soldiers, typically inscribed with colorful language extolling their heroism and valor, or, sometimes, the details of particular battles or local units. Some go further, however, to glorify the Confederacy’s cause. For example, in Anderson County, South Carolina, a monument erected in 1902 reads, in part: “The world shall yet decide, in truth’s clear, far-off light, that the soldiers who wore the gray, and died with Lee, were in the right.”
    https://www.splcenter.org/20160421/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy#findings

    For intimidation purposes...I think that's clear.
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  • alhalh 8500 replies47 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    A lot of the monuments from the 20s and 30s were funded either directly or indirectly by the KKK. Just pick one and start researching. You might want to research local lynchings during the same years. So far this has been an eye opening exercise for me.

    chippedtoof: A writer named Brendan Wolfe has a blog. You can search brendan wolfe lee monument to read an interesting analysis. It looks at history from a variety of angles.
    edited September 2017
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  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    Then, it feels like the path needs to be followed. I have no problem with that. The issue I'm having is that I don't see how there's reconciliation here... so we're just going to have to grin and bear the turmoil. A new president is not going to be able to stop this now.

    [Edit: thanks @alh will take a look. Appreciate the help :) ]
    edited September 2017
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  • alhalh 8500 replies47 threads Senior Member
    There is no chance of reconciliation with the Klan. This isn't a live and let live situation. imho.

    We can try and talk sense to them. I don't believe ridiculing them is at all helpful. It is very important to just keep speaking up. jmho
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  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus 79681 replies712 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    So no middle ground since the battlelines are purely on racist fronts?

    It is not like most black* people can compromise on being black* (even if they wanted to), especially when such identity is often based on others' perception without regard to self-identification.

    *Or any other race.
    edited September 2017
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  • HuntHunt 26787 replies131 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll repeat the point: there are (at least) two kinds of confederal monuments. One is to leaders, like Lee, Davis, generals, etc., and one is the generic monument to local people who fought/died in the Civil War. Many towns in the South (including my hometown) have the second type: it depicts a generic soldier. It is essentially the same as a WWI monument. To me, that's very different from a statue of Robert E. Lee.

    As for the flag, if it's a symbol of Southern pride, it's only a symbol of white Southern pride. I think one of the main reasons it's flown is simply to mess with "Yankees" and "liberals" who won't like it. It may be that's what's going on with these flyers, too--I doubt if they are the work of the KKK; more likely a couple of jerks who think it's "funny."
    edited September 2017
    Post edited by juillet on
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  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    It is not like most black* people can compromise on being black* (even if they wanted to), especially when such identity is often based on others' perception without regard to self-identification.
    Which goes without saying. If the whole point of the confrontation is racist in nature, then there is little chance for reconciliation. What I was trying to say is that if there are other elements which are involved, then perhaps there is room. Frankly, it sounds like I'm barking up the wrong tree and this is a pure hate battle.

    The communities voted to take down the statues so the majority is in agreement. The task at hand is to mend fences, but if the differences are purely focused on racial antagonism and the contrarian sub-group is not small, then there is a long road ahead.
    @alh wrote:
    I don't believe ridiculing them is at all helpful
    100%
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  • LakeWashingtonLakeWashington 8870 replies476 threads Senior Member
    How about a monument for the pitiful Union P.O.W.s who died under horrendous conditions at the Confederate prison at Anderson, SC?

    And the ONLY monument to a Revolutionary War hero (besides G. Washington) in the southern states that I am familiar with is the statute of Nathaniel Greene in Greensboro NC.
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  • simba9simba9 3268 replies20 threads Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    Ohio and Michigan have always been "fertile ground" for racism and the KKK.

    When I was growing up in Ohio, I never saw any evidence of the KKK in the state. I'm sure there must have been a few of them around, but not in enough numbers to make an impression. I've lived in about half-a-dozen states, and Ohio was among the least racist of any of them. Ironically, New York and California, where I live now, are both the most diverse and most racially-charged states I've lived in.
    edited September 2017
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  • gouf78gouf78 7795 replies23 threads Senior Member
    @LakeWashington --the entire Andersonville prison site is a memorial to prisoners of war. The grim history of the prison is told in a very sobering fashion through stories and photos in an excellent museum . Included are POWs from other wars also in the museum.
    When you see the walls, the camps and the huge cemetery nearby it is a deep reflection on mans inhumanity to man.
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  • gouf78gouf78 7795 replies23 threads Senior Member
    And you'll see lots of statues of revolutionary war heroes in Mass and Virginia. The original 13 colonies have a lock on those.
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  • garlandgarland 16119 replies201 threads Senior Member
    ^Need a "love that!" reaction choice on CC.
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  • chippedtoofchippedtoof 260 replies3 threads Junior Member
    "But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth..."

    The question was not necessarily "wait" but rather work with the other side with some level of respect as people regardless of viewpoint. The quotation I pulled out from your reference states constructive tension... and a tolerance for it. I'm not sure the name-calling and actions on both sides, as well as the reactions in response to behavior due to this tension, is tolerant or constructive.

    Because one is right, is it correct to forgo all of ones values/beliefs/code of conduct and go Mr Kurtz on the other side? Please understand that I fully support what we're supporting here, but I think how one does things still speaks to our character, and our character is what our children will remember, and learn from, as they form their own. We call for rehabilitation for criminals, but offer no hope for it for others that commit other types of "crime".

    I'm not saying forget, nor even forgive; I'm saying always strive for a solution and a future. If we are just waiting for people to die off and hopefully not spread their vitriol before they do so, we will be waiting a long time, a long time during which we will be spreading our own vitriol. It doesn't sound like progress.
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