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Confederate battle flag fliers posted at American University

124

Replies to: Confederate battle flag fliers posted at American University

  • chippedtoofchippedtoof Registered User Posts: 263 Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    I'm going to respectfully bow out of this thread. Perhaps my question regarding the "best path" to reach our goal is not on topic, and perhaps detracts from a discussion on the critical situation at hand in our country.

    Please indulge me one more anecdote, and I ask some forgiveness for posting then running. When my S was two, we were in Las Vegas and were waiting for a shuttle to pick us up at the hotel. A woman, of minority ethnicity, sat next to us on a long stone bench. My two year old, for whatever reason, was looking at the lady for some amount of time (we're all parents here; we've seen our children do this time and again). The woman became irritated and lashed out asking us why our child kept looking at her and spat out "hasn't he seen an [minority group] person before?" I don't know how, but my two year old had initiated a racial incident, even though people of her ethnicity were readily found in his day care, gymboree group, and church. We of course apologized and instructed our S to pay attention to other matters, but the pure indignation on the lady's part left an impression on me.

    I know that was one person and one incident. But like the flags, I see milder forms of it more and more often. European transplants angered because their neighbors asked them where they were from during a get-together. People getting upset because others described their neighborhood 30 years ago in a positive light (it was less diverse back then, but that was not his point...). People getting worked up because someone asked their help to define a term in their native language. Yes, maybe not the most proper thing to do, but is it worth a fight? Worth making an enemy over?

    Why we sometimes give in to divisive tactics and don't look for a better way to handle this issue (and yes it needs to be handled on many fronts and arenas) troubles me.
  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger Registered User Posts: 2,780 Senior Member
    @alh

    The SPLC high estimate is 8,000 members. To put that in context for a country of almost 326 million people, that works out to 0.0032% of the adult population.
  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 Registered User Posts: 12,619 Senior Member
    . If we are just waiting for people to die off and hopefully not spread their vitriol before they do so, we will be waiting a long time, a long time during which we will be spreading our own vitriol. It doesn't sound like progress.

    The kind of makes it sounds like only a few of the older generation are racist and that this can be waited out.

    The guys I saw marching in Charlottesville were pretty young.

    This is not "oh granddad grew up in the south in the 30s so we humor him".
  • chippedtoofchippedtoof Registered User Posts: 263 Junior Member
    @Snowball City That's a mischaracterization of my reaction and what I wrote so I believe you are being unfair here. I had sympathy with confusion and shock (where did you get irritation? I apologized to her...). But that is besides the point. The reaction, understandable as it may be, just doesn't help the situation... that is all I am saying, and could possibly hurt. And such reactions are increasing in frequency.

    @OHMomof2 And yes the guys in Charlottesville were pretty young. Which is why I said that's a long time to wait.


  • garlandgarland Registered User Posts: 16,065 Senior Member
    ^@chippedtoof --But that's the point. You expected her to "help the situation." It's OUR situation to fix, not hers.
  • chippedtoofchippedtoof Registered User Posts: 263 Junior Member
    edited September 2017
    I believe both sides should have the attitude to chip-in in any such situation. Also, it seems that I'm a minority too doesn't seem to be playing into this... (I know I only hinted but... now, do you want to hear if I was called names? Whether that hurt or not? Whether I thought I was sensitive or not? And what I chose to do? And how many countries this happened to me or my parents?) None of this is easy.
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 76,734 Senior Member
    The SPLC high estimate is 8,000 members. To put that in context for a country of almost 326 million people, that works out to 0.0032% of the adult population.

    However, there are many more people who subscribe to less extreme types of racism. (Note: not necessarily just white people, but white people's preferences tend to have a much greater aggregate impact due to greater numbers and therefore aggregate economic and political power, even if individual persons are individually powerless.)

    For example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3704191/ describes an experiment where people in Chicago and Detroit areas were asked to rate the desirability of various neighborhoods shown in photos. One not surprising result was that both white and black people preferred higher social class neighborhoods. But they also found that, independently, the apparent racial composition of the neighborhoods shown affected preferences. White respondents tended to have a preference order of white > mixed > black, while black respondents tended to have a preference order of mixed > black > white. It should not be hard to see that such preferences tend to push toward neighborhood racial segregation and "white flight".

    https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1937241-the-us-is-expected-to-eventually-become-majority-non-white-p1.html notes a survey finding that most white Americans are at least somewhat worried about the changing ethnic makeup of the US.
  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 76,734 Senior Member
    I know in many cases a real conversation is impossible. But I'm suggesting that the way we approach the conversation is observed by many on the sidelines and it turns them off. My sibling's in-laws voted for Trump and are from the south (and we happen to be different ethnicities). I like them; they are good people and I will defend them fully, even though I don't agree with their choice for president. I don't like talking politics with them, but I want to understand them. How do I reconcile that with some colleagues and friends that I mostly agree with, but who instantly refer to those that support Trump as racists or enablers of racists? Is that how I should broach the topic with them?

    How do you actually broach the topic of racism to your sibling's in-laws? Is it effective as getting them to change their viewpoints on racism and such? Or do you find from such conversations that their views are "hardened" and unchangeable?
  • chippedtoofchippedtoof Registered User Posts: 263 Junior Member
    I haven't broached the topic; they enthusiastically support the marriage and have shown themselves to be good people from honest and modest backgrounds. We respectfully discussed their support of Trump and their rationale was similar to the examples expressed in this article (which is on the topic of health care but the values, situations, and viewpoints apply imo): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/02/is-health-care-a-right

    My role was to listen more than I talked (avoid left/right-splaining, gender-spaining, etc) repeat their rationale back to them so as to better assure I heard them right, celebrate the overlaps, and try to identify the grey areas where different viewpoints stand on different points on the spectrum. I try not to discuss right and wrong but rather position on this spectrum. Each position should be endorsed as a rational one, given the situation and values involved. This talk resonated with me on this regard (I'm sure people have seen it):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOQduoLgRw I read his book as well and I try to approach discussions like this in the spirit he espouses.

    They have expressed reservations for moving closer to us due to attitudes and activities of the political/social left, mirroring what a lot of people around here say about their area... which left me with the bleak realization that this country is really in a bad place with very few paths of recovery.

    What I find, is that most people don't disagree on right and wrong (other than the extremists and I'm personally not invested in discussing things with them... they don't want to hear from me) but rather the issue is prioritization of the values we both deem as "good" and deserving of support. With give and take on that prioritization, I believe progress can be made.

    With my sib-in-laws, we haven't found areas of disagreement really. Certainly not enough to damage a relationship over. It still is nerve-wracking and I do step gingerly.

  • doschicosdoschicos Registered User Posts: 20,451 Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    "However, there are many more people who subscribe to less extreme types of racism."

    And there are plenty of people who subscribe to the same extreme type of racism but are not associated specifically with the KKK but one of dozens of other groups that have sprung up. The KKK is your granddad's form of white supremacy. Plenty of new groups out there, unfortunately. A lot lurking on the internet. Just like ISIS, they increasingly indoctrinate and recruit online.
  • gouf78gouf78 Registered User Posts: 7,760 Senior Member
    " How do I reconcile that with some colleagues and friends that I mostly agree with, but who instantly refer to those that support Trump as racists or enablers of racists? Is that how I should broach the topic with them?"


    Good question. Name calling is not the opening for a constructive two-way discussion.

    Teach your kids to be open to new views. No matter their age.
    Listen to the "other side" without getting defensive. Stand up for your beliefs .
    It's important to challenge what we believe in and why we believe.
    And it's okay to challenge someone else's view.. And okay to change your own.

    Have your kids (and you) Get FACTS (which change ...what didn't happen yesterday may have today).
    Consider the SOURCE of 'facts" (who is pushing the "agenda"?) What's the news source? What do other news source's say? When someone "insists" they are "right" --ask about why and where that opinion is formed---personal experience? news? history? school?

    THINK! For yourself. We have so much "bombardment" from so many sources.
    Good and bad. Right and left. Social media.
    Don't make snap judgments.

  • sciencenerdsciencenerd Registered User Posts: 1,767 Senior Member
    @roethlisburger
    Since the number of Klan members is "minuscule" should we just ignore them? While they grow in power and influence. And while they kill who knows how many other people like they did in Charlottesville?
  • MYOS1634MYOS1634 Registered User Posts: 41,570 Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    ^Especially when they say, on record, "of course more people will die".
    The KKK is a terrorist group (is classified as such) and the different other groups that recruit online consider violence justifiable since the US won't let them have an " ethnostate".
    Joke: = let us decide they relinquish US citizenship (we're all tainted anyway), give them a swath of land up in Montana that they organize any way they want, can show the world their superiority at urban planning, building, culture, etc, and now they need a passport to get to the US. :-)

    (People from Montana please don't be angry: I picked Montana because they'd have more opportunity to show their superiority there due to large swaths of federal and private land without much on it. It's a pointless "gift" if there are Cities, etc.)
This discussion has been closed.