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First Harvard, then Pomona (meme group)

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Replies to: First Harvard, then Pomona (meme group)

  • maya54maya54 2138 replies88 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    "(And High School!! HS would become a zoo)"

    High School students do not have constitutionally protected First Amendment speech at school and their speech off campus is somewhat limited if it causes disruption. But what these Pamona students did here: a private FB group in which the said vile things.... that's likely going to be protected. Take a look at the Beverly Hills Unified School District case. https://casetext.com/case/jc-v-beverly-hills-unified-school-district
    edited September 2017
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  • MYOS1634MYOS1634 41879 replies451 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    I can't really read it... it's a site where you need to subscribe; I can read something about Tinker, which I assume is a proper name.

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  • romanigypsyeyesromanigypsyeyes 33305 replies767 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    So when at the University of Michigan students are demanding that the university take action against those who wrote the N -word on dorm door tags, the school really needs to explain that " look if we punish them for that we would have to apply the exact same punishment to those who wrote " you suck" or even "Go Blue" on someone else's door ( without permission) or it's impermissible content based restrictions on speech."

    Using an ethnic slur against other students is a violation of several of the codes of conduct (see F and M under violations for example). One possible outcome if this is expulsion: https://oscr.umich.edu/sites/oscr.umich.edu/files/PDF SSRR (July 2016).pdf

    Freedom of speech doesn't mean that the university can't impose restrictions on students. If you would like to voluntarily be part of the university, you agree to abide by their terms. You break them, you can be punished.
    edited September 2017
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  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger 2806 replies154 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    Freedom of speech doesn't mean that the university can't impose restrictions on students.

    Actually, it does if we're talking about public universities. Free speech is never unlimited(ex. you can't make bomb threats), but restrictions have to be narrowly tailored to survive strict scrutiny and the Supreme Court has never approved a "hate speech" exception to the first amendment.
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  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger 2806 replies154 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    tonymom wrote:
    Maybe we could just have the leadership style of the Lt Gen Silveria from the Airforce Academy who forcefully told his students bigotry, racism and sexism would not be tolerated and if you can't treat someone with RESPECT GET OUT! What a novel concept....

    When you join the military you waive certain constitutional rights. For example, you could be court martialed in the military for flag burning, or kneeling when you are told to stand during the anthem, but that wouldn't be constitutionally permissible at a public university.
    edited September 2017
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  • tonymomtonymom 1119 replies55 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    @roethlisburger
    I was speaking to his character. His willingness to call out the despicable behavior that now is becoming more and more acceptable. He didn't have to do it but he did and I appreciate his leadership and setting a line that shouldn't be crossed. It's called decency and in my book it's not a liberal, or conservative principle but a human principle.
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  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger 2806 replies154 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    He didn't have to do it but he did

    It's crazy to think his response on this much of a publicity issue wasn't coordinated with and approved by his bosses at the Pentagon. So yes, he did have to do something like this.
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  • maya54maya54 2138 replies88 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited September 2017
    "Freedom of speech doesn't mean that the university can't impose restrictions on students. If you would like to voluntarily be part of the university, you agree to abide by their terms. You break them, you can be punished."

    Actually that's EXACTLY what it means. A public university is prevented by the 1st Amendment from restrictin almost all student speech. (the only permissible restrictions are the usual First Amendment exceptions. Hate Speech is Not an exception ) You CANNOT BE PUNISHED!

    Repeat after me: A public university speech code CAN NOT AND DOES NOT TRUMP THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

    Why am I " yelling" at a nice person like you @romanigypsyeyes ? Because it's VITAL that every one, especially students understand the law. Understand that by attending a public university you don't give up your constitutional rights (service academies may be an exception). A university can't ask you to waive those right in order to attend, like by asking you to agree to a speech code. This is well settled law.

    So why do universities have them. For deterrent effect. At the end of the day they know they are unenforceable.
    edited September 2017
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  • MYOS1634MYOS1634 41879 replies451 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    ^ but the link provided upthread indicates clearly that, yes, universities can have a code of conduct that includes speech, in that threats, intimidation, insults can result in punishment, and other forms of speech too if they make it impossible to have equal access to education for members of protected groups or individuals.
    edited October 2017
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  • maya54maya54 2138 replies88 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    It's Harassment that's not protected speech by the First Amendment whether on a college campus or elsewhere. Your municipality can have a law that prevents you from harassing your neighbors. (What is harassment is going to be narrowly interpreted.) But nothing changes about your constitutional rights just because you are attending a public university. That's the point. If the speech code at a public university says, as many do that, insults can be punished ( even though they don't rise to the level of pervasiveness required to constitute harassment) that speech code is unconstitutional and can not be enforced even though the student "agreed" to it.

    And the main point here is that what was going on at Pamona which was not directed at anybody but rather was " talk among ourselves" speech is most definitely not harassment ( Vile though it may be) and thus under California law ( which makes private unis subject to the First Amendment) can not subject a student to punishment.
    edited October 2017
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  • maya54maya54 2138 replies88 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    I should add that the extent to which harassment in the form of pure speech can be considered unprotected has not been fully explored by the courts except with respect to High School students who do not have full First Amendment rights. Given that on First Amendment issues liberal and conservative justices often align (in an especially unusual manner with regards to US Supreme Court justices) the expectation by many attorneys who practice in this area is that Should this issue ever be fully put to the test the Court will very narrowly define harassment to something akin to a direct threat.
    edited October 2017
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  • roethlisburgerroethlisburger 2806 replies154 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    @tonymom

    It's the political appointees, the Joint Chiefs, and the CSAF/VCSAF who truly set the tone and direction. The Citadel isn't an academy and isn't run by the military. If your relatives attended more than 3 years, almost the entire top leadership level at the Pentagon would have been replaced by now.
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  • tonymomtonymom 1119 replies55 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    I'd argue we all set the tone in the ways we deal with others in our daily lives be they professional or personal. You seem to be missing the larger point I'm making here. The behavior was called out. Does it really matter who made the decision to do it? It's important it was done. Big cheese or little cheese we all make a difference or idly sit by and condone vile behavior....
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  • CorinthianCorinthian 1788 replies62 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    http://tsl.news/news/6906/ Pomona says meme page is protected speech; will not investigate.
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  • CorinthianCorinthian 1788 replies62 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    Here's an article that quotes the entire letter sent out by the Dean of Students explaining the decision. http://claremontindependent.com/no-sanctions-memes-college-says/
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  • jonrijonri 7280 replies134 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    I'm less liberal than most people on this board.

    I took a look at some of the memes and while they were tasteless, I'd be appalled if someone was disciplined for them.
    IMO, the Harvard ones were a heck of a lot worse.

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  • tonymomtonymom 1119 replies55 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    I had a student tell me it was his "freedom of speech" to say in class "those who don't speak English aren't American". I reminded him his rights don't allow him to create a hostile learning environment for others and that we respect each other. He's 12 yrs old. I have worked in education for quite some time and while kids often do say unkind things to one another there is certainly a new "feel" to this sort of bully behavior.
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  • maya54maya54 2138 replies88 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited October 2017
    The article links to Pamona' s First Amendment compliant policy which shows just how little " Hate Speech" can be subject to discipline (for public universities and California privates)

    As the policy states Verbal abuse, threats, intimidation, or harassment in the form of speech is not subject to disciple unless


    1) the speech is directed at an individual and

    2)
    actually used in an abusive manner in a situation that presents an actual danger that it will cause an immediate breach of the peace by inciting a violent reaction by the individual to whom the speech is addressed

    Or

    is offensive to the individual complaining of harassment and offensive to a reasonable person and so persistent, repetitive, pervasive, or severe that it has the purpose or effect of substantially interfering with an individual’s academic or professional performance or creating an intimidating, abusive or hostile educational, employment or living environment at the College.

    The memes which were intended to be shared only among like minded individuals do not qualify.

    It's intersting to note that Stanford could not do what Harvard did!
    edited October 2017
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  • LinuskyLinusky 33 replies11 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    Memes are suppose to be laughed at... It was never created for people to take seriously in the first place. I don't see why people are paying attention to memes so much. Oh by the way, hate speech = speech you disagree. If it is a conservative view back with real facts, then it is not hate speech. Because facts don't care about your feelings. Students should be able to debate and be allowed to openly express their views for our societies to progress. If you think a disagreeing view is hate speech, then you are a fascist. A TRUE FASCIST.
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