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"How New York’s Elite Public Schools Lost Their Black and Hispanic Students"

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Replies to: "How New York’s Elite Public Schools Lost Their Black and Hispanic Students"

  • HannaHanna Registered User Posts: 14,905 Senior Member
    Chicago has a much smaller, but academically comparable, system of public magnet high schools. But the schools reflect the makeup of the city better because admission takes into account middle school grades and census tracts, not just the test score.

    I don't know any college admissions professional who thinks they could do a better job identifying talent if the only information they had was the test score, and they didn't know students' grades or backgrounds.
  • oldmom4896oldmom4896 Registered User Posts: 4,068 Senior Member
    https://www.schools.nyc.gov/school-life/learning/testing/gifted-and-talented-testing

    Although students are eligible to test until they are in second grade (for admission to a gifted class in third grade), there are no new seats except those vacated by students who leave the NYC public school system or go to a different school.
  • EconPopEconPop Registered User Posts: 37 Junior Member
    edited June 7
    So you are suggesting magnet elementary and middle school within each *district* that nurture competent, motivated students which, in turn, become feeder schools for the SHS.

    Yes, @Theoden

    However, to clarify, I think nearly every young student can be competent and motivated. KIPP schools prove that by sending 99% of their students to college. If the NYC public school system decides to create elementary and middle schools that provide the same level and quality of education as the honored High Schools, the NYC public school system will ensure fewer students are left out.

    It is an all too obviously unfair system that admits it is not doing enough to educate young students, but promises to reward those poorly educated students with a top-shelf High School education ONLY IF those poorly educated students prove they have somehow overcome the limits of the poor k-8 education they were provided with by the NYC public school system.

    I think a start to improving today's system is to create feeder elementary and middle schools that mirror the quality of the best high schools.


    This is also, in some sense, saying what's obivious - NYC has a terribly segregated, highly unequal public lower education system.

    Yeah. As do many other school systems across America.
  • oldmom4896oldmom4896 Registered User Posts: 4,068 Senior Member
    Charter schools attract parents who are motivated to reach out and find the best for their kid, leaving the rest to the public schools. Also, in NYC they are notorious for not accommodating students with special needs, and pushing out kids they don't want.

    KIPP has 7 elementary schools, 7 middle schools and 1 high school in NYC, which has a million students enrolled.
  • EconPopEconPop Registered User Posts: 37 Junior Member
    edited June 7
    I want to correct myself. My 99% stat was in reference to one specific KIPP school. The national average is 78% of KIPP graduates go on to enroll in college. Still impressive.
    Source: https://www.kipp.org/results/national/#question-4:-are-our-students-climbing-the-mountain-to-and-through-college
  • maya54maya54 Registered User Posts: 2,097 Senior Member
    edited June 7
    “Chicago has a much smaller, but academically comparable, system of public magnet high schools. But the schools reflect the makeup of the city better because admission takes into account middle school grades and census tracts, not just the test score.”

    The main difference really is the income based census tracking. Almost every student taking the test has straight As. Being from an upper income area mean there are schools (Walter Payton for sure) where you must get an almost perfect score ( greater than 99 percent I believe from what my friends dealing with selective enrollment this year tell me that if a kid got more than one wrong this year it knocked you out of contention for Payton) where student In the lowest income track could score about an 80 percent and get in. The issue in NYC is that there are tons of ( Asian) students from low income families just scoring very very high. Chicago’s structure is less likely to work.
  • brantlybrantly Registered User Posts: 3,747 Senior Member
    kiddie wrote:
    I was in a program in middle school where you skipped 8th grade but not every middle school had that program - I don't know if it exists anymore.

    SP. No, I don't think they have it any more. Back in the '60s and '70s it was there to prevent white flight from the city. Everyone in the program loved it, but it was indeed de facto segregation. It wasn't test-based. Pretty much the fifth-grade teachers "identified" students for 2-year and 3-year SP.
  • TooOld4SchoolTooOld4School Registered User Posts: 3,299 Senior Member
    edited June 9
    Public schools have, for the majority of students, failed in NYC, Chicago, and all of the large cities. Private academies like KIPP show that it isn't the kids, despite the noise put out by the NEA and teachers unions. I think they are beyond redemption and the only solution is a voucher program which would include public and private schools. That would revive Catholic schools as well as charters and privates. I expect that we will see tremendous improvement in the next few decades in cities like Indianapolis, where full vouchers are in effect, while cities that retain monolithic single provider systems will continue to deteriorate.
  • TheodenTheoden Registered User Posts: 119 Junior Member
    @maya54 I heard that about the magnet schools in Chicago.

    And you're right, the fact that a lot of the Asian students who crack the SHSAT are in the low income bracket, would mean that particular system wouldn't work too well in NYC.

    Some feel that a single objective test is the most meritocratic way of gaining admission to a school. And Asians will point out since they are not ensconced in the white power structures of admissions staff, they have a better shot in test-centric environments where they at least have a clear metric to shoot for and and can focus on things they have control over. The stats in NYC would prove that assumption. The white-dominant public "interview" high-schools, though significantly more diverse than the SHSAT schools (vis as vis African American and Hispanic Students) are still generally majority white, with Asians, African-Americans and Hispanics attending in varying proportions. Again, since the optics in these schools aren't nearly as jarring as the SHSAT, schools, the dept of education isn't gunning for them.



  • ucbalumnusucbalumnus Registered User Posts: 76,686 Senior Member
    Theoden wrote:
    And you're right, the fact that a lot of the Asian students who crack the SHSAT are in the low income bracket, would mean that particular system wouldn't work too well in NYC.

    Isn't it the case that (before NYC public schools started giving free lunch to all students) nearly three quarters of NYC public school students were in the free or reduced price lunch category? If so, that suggests that there has been flight of non-F/RP-lunch students to private schools or some such. (The SHSAT schools had lower percentages of F/RP lunch students, but still around half.)
  • TheodenTheoden Registered User Posts: 119 Junior Member
    @ucbalumnus I don't know what the % was for F/RP lunch. I think, though, I'm not certain, that F/RP students have been recruited by private schools. If you look at profile of a lot of the elite prep schools in NYC, they all seem to have (% wise) equal or higher number of Hispanic and African-American students as the SHSAT. That's just me spit balling, I don't have all the numbers.
  • oldmom4896oldmom4896 Registered User Posts: 4,068 Senior Member
    As I posted before, the SHSAT schools vary.
    Brooklyn Tech 59 percent free/reduced price lunch, 61 percent Asian, 5937 students.
    Stuyvesant 42 percent free/reduced price lunch, 71 percent Asian, 3316 students.
    Bronx Science 42 percent free/reduced price lunch, 65 percent Asian, 3010 students.

    The remaining five schools that use the SHSAT test for admission are much smaller.
  • CTTCCTTC Registered User Posts: 2,234 Senior Member
    @Hanna
    Chicago has a much smaller, but academically comparable, system of public magnet high schools. But the schools reflect the makeup of the city better because admission takes into account middle school grades and census tracts, not just the test score.

    @maya54
    Almost every student taking the test has straight As. Being from an upper income area mean there are schools (Walter Payton for sure) where you must get an almost perfect score ( greater than 99 percent I believe from what my friends dealing with selective enrollment this year tell me that if a kid got more than one wrong this year it knocked you out of contention for Payton) where student In the lowest income track could score about an 80 percent and get in.

    So there is a diversity score. Are the parameters transparent to the public? Such as this census tract needs this score, or this is the results of admissions for 2019 by census tract? Or is it carefully hidden (just as colleges carefully hide their admissions stats by race)?
  • maya54maya54 Registered User Posts: 2,097 Senior Member
    edited June 12
    @CTTC. Not hidden at all. Based on your address you are in Zone 1-4. Different number of “ points” needed for different zone in order to get in. The points you have is based on a test score and grades. It also used to be based on attendance until that set up a public health crisis in the city during a flu epidemic. Kids would drag them selves to school and spread disease just to keep their perfect attendance up
  • HannaHanna Registered User Posts: 14,905 Senior Member
    edited June 13
    There are a million small tweaks to the system that could make it work in NY; distribution via the top students in each middle school would probably be best, but you could also do pure geography rather than income zones. Take the top X% from each ZIP code.

    The point is to have factors beyond the test score to locate the talent throughout the city. Lots of colleges and private schools do it, as well as public magnets in many cities. They don't have to reinvent the wheel here.
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