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College Board is cancelling people's paid and confirmed registrations for March SAT...

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Replies to: College Board is cancelling people's paid and confirmed registrations for March SAT...

  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    also i want to say that for those of u who think the college board has done nothing to stop all the cheating in asia, please do not be naive:

    cb has in fact taken very proactive measures to put severe dents into the efforts of widespread cheating that have plagued asia for years and this step taken in march, while most will be critical and skeptical of the reasons for which it was taken, was most likely very necessary to ensure a fair testing environment for all. look at what cb has done and maybe u will understand

    -- cheating took place in asia for 5 yrs because workers at test centers stole the tests from the boxes

    response: cb sent locked boxes to designated areas in asia and audited/inspected centers they suspected of being involved in theft of tests

    @commiecome , I don't think anyone claims that College Board has "done nothing" to stop cheating, but none of the steps you mention in your posts are the least bit "proactive"; in fact, they are the very definition of reactive.

    That said, what you have written above is largely accurate, and it mirrors what I have written elsewhere in the thread: the major Asian cheating scandals of recent years have resulted not from students discussing test questions on College Confidential or any other such nonsense but rather from College Board's/ETS's own people--whether test center directors or others in the distribution chain--stealing and selling tests for profit.

    -- cheating took place in asia because tests were reused often

    response: beginning last year , cb reused unreleased tests that were not in widespread circulation, but it made one error in january in china and in response, made the march decision..look at february 2016 china make up test, many academies in china guaranteed one of their unreleased tests would be used...how shocked were they when a test was reused, but it was one that nobody had..why not? obviously, cb isn't dumb or as negligent as everyone thinks it is

    Not exactly, @commiecome . As you acknowledge above, College Board and ETS's own people had already spent years selling the older "unreleased tests" into "widespread circulation." Thus, the only way to administer "unreleased tests that were not in widespread circulation" was to recycle tests abroad almost immediately after those tests had been given for the first time in the U.S. Thus, in 2015 and 2016, College Board and ETS fell into a dangerously predictable pattern: they would give a new test in the U.S. on one test date, and then they would recycle that very same test abroad on the very next test date. Naturally, reusing tests according to such a predictable pattern did not prevent cheating; it enabled cheating. You seem to inadvertently acknowledge that point here:
    -- second problem was possible because adult test takers stole the tests directly from test centers in the us while taking the exam, which is why we had a china cancellation and leakage in january of 2016

    response: screen and prevent certain adult test takers from taking exam as it did in march

    say what u want, but if there is any consolation to any of this, it is that life for the cheaters isn't going to get any better...mark my words on that ^^

    Well, exactly. If, thanks to the College Board, everyone knew in advance that the test given in the U.S. in December was going to be reused in Asia in January, then of course unscrupulous people were going to try to find out about the December U.S. test.

    But what makes you think "adult test takers" were responsible? Are people under 21 somehow incapable of manipulating hidden cameras? If you are in a position to know all that your posts show that you know, I suspect you have already seen leaked photographs of the March test. If adult test takers weren't responsible for the leakage on the March date (obviously), why suppose they were responsible for leakage on earlier dates?
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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    There's a lot of good information in your posts, @commiecome , so why not just keep it all fact based?

    This is just silly:
    some chinese "carriers" (not young teens but adults in their 30s and even 40s) will even volunteer to run out of center with test for right price , i believe $3,000 or so, and fly back to china..
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  • 2018eastorwest2018eastorwest 301 replies32 threadsRegistered User Member
    The OP discounts every single suggestion that adults cheat. He simply will not acknowledge it. The fact remains that the CB can't summarily cancel the registrations of all students in case students are cheaters (because students have a valid reason for taking the test for its intended purpose). However, since adults who are not students have no valid reason to take the test for its intended purpose (entrance into college), the CB can cancel their registrations. No one here has suggested that every cheater is an adult non-student, just that there are adults non-students who are also cheaters. Everyone other than the OP seems willing to agree that not every student is a cheater, nor every adult non- student a cheater, but that there are cheaters of all ages. The CB can rid the test of adult non student cheaters by not allowing them to take a test that will be re-used. They can also not re-use the test, etc. but this is easier and cheaper for them. Most posters are also able to see that there might be other reasons that the CB has cancelled the registrations (i.e. fearing transparency). No one but the CB knows for sure. But, it can very simply be deduced from all of the links and info provided, that there are adult non-students who cheat. Even without any concrete evidence, it can be concluded from the circumstantial evidence. And even without any circumstantial evidence, it can be assumed - think about how many thousands of adult non-students take the test very year. Is it reasonable to say that none have violated the terms of CB? The OP even states that everyone does that, and "rightfully so." That is cheating, according to the CB. SO, OP, you have admitted that even you believe that the adults cheat. CB put a stop to that this time around, whatever their true motive was.
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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    Really now, @2018eastorwest , there are only so many times I am willing to cover the exact same ground, especially if you won't even do the world the courtesy of writing in paragraphs.

    Let's just start with your very first two sentences and leave it at that, okay?
    The OP discounts every single suggestion that adults cheat. He simply will not acknowledge it.

    Well. See here:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19349456/#Comment_19349456
    We weren't discussing "adult cheating," @2018eastorwest; we were discussing whether cheating involved adult test takers. See my post right above yours--that is exactly the language that I used there; it is also the language I have used throughout this thread.

    Or here:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19350215/#Comment_19350215
    Now, that doesn't mean that adults are not involved in SAT cheating. Just last year, as you likely recall, federal law enforcement took down an international Chinese-American cheating operation that forged passports and sent imposter test-takers to sit the SAT in place of others. Were adults involved? Yes. Were adults test-takers involved? No.

    Or here:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19358470/#Comment_19358470
    And @2018eastorwest, just to clarify, although I have said this all before:

    I do know and believe that adults are extensively involved in SAT cheating.

    What I keep disputing is the role of adult test takers. Is it likely that at least one adult test taker has cheated or enabled cheating at at least one point in the past? Yes, of course it is. But is there any evidence that adult test takers are responsible for any non-trivial share of all SAT cheating? No, there really isn't. Not one of the major cheating scandals has involved--and none of the known methods of cheating require--an adult test-taker in a test center.

    Those quotes are from just the first twelve pages of the thread. I'm sure I could find more if I were inclined to keep looking, but I am not. As I said above, I'm not really interested in retreading the same ground, especially with people who begin their posts by mischaracterizing my words.

    If you need to refresh your memory about my main points, though, you can find something of a summary here:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19364810/#Comment_19364810
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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    And by the way, @2018eastorwest @commiecome , I say that this ...
    some chinese "carriers" (not young teens but adults in their 30s and even 40s) will even volunteer to run out of center with test for right price , i believe $3,000 or so, and fly back to china.

    ... is silly, because it is silly.

    They run out of the test center? Why? What does running accomplish? The test center and College Board/ETS themselves have the runners' real names. Couldn't they just call the police? Don't you suppose the police could find the airport?

    And why do people need to fly in from China? Why waste the time on a visa or the money on airfare and accommodation? Aren't there people in the U.S. who know how to "run"?

    And why does the paper test need to go back to China? Do Chinese people not know how to take pictures with smartphones? Do they not know how to use email and other forms of electronic communication?

    As I said, silly.
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  • 2018eastorwest2018eastorwest 301 replies32 threadsRegistered User Member
    @Jgoggs regarding your question "Why do people need to fly in from China? Why waste the time on a visa or the money on airfare and accommodation?" From your own words in the OP: "Some of these tutors/teachers are from outside the U.S. and now have non-refundable flight and hotel bookings to the U.S. West Coast."

    SO, back to your question - why would people need to fly in from China (if they were not going to cheat - i.e. use the info gained from the test for monetary gain; illegally/improperly "share" the info on the test with clients)? I'm not understanding why any adult non-students from Asia would book flights and accommodations and spend all that money and time to take the March test - just to uncover flaws? Is that your explanation?
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  • HuntHunt 26787 replies131 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited March 2016
    You know, if I were a completely honest test tutor, I do think I'd want to take the test, if possible, and I'd want to take the new test as soon as possible. Even if I was meticulous about not revealing specific questions, I'd want to see what it was like, what time management strategies might be needed, etc. So I don't think it's absurd for people to want to take the test. Would those legitimate interests justify flying from China to take it? That's a little harder to answer, but maybe, assuming there's a lot of money in test prep. If I were such a completely honest test tutor who was planning to take the March test for these entirely valid reasons, I suppose I would be angry (and possibly financially harmed) by being told I can't take the test in March. It would be interesting to know whether such a person would be allowed to take the test in March if they appealed to CB, or if that was reserved only for adults who could show they needed it for a program.
    edited March 2016
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  • commiecome1commiecome1 2 replies0 threadsRegistered User New Member
    the story of carriers---yes, it seems silly--but is, in fact, based in factual grounding, not some fictional tall tale

    to help one put all of this into perspective, here are a few more details

    beginning last year, all proctors and test security supervisors throughout asia were required to enforce a new set of rules for only ADULT TEST TAKERS ...and particular emphasis was placed on adults of chinese descent concentrated in one testing place

    so what were these new rules?

    -- in cases where 5 or more adults were registered to take test, they had to be separated into a different classroom with additional proctor and monitored carefully for suspicious acts..seating arrangements were also very strict in that we had to separate these "adults" so that they were not directly next to each other or behind each other

    -- in cases where there were fewer adults, they could be placed into room with students, BUT they had to be seated in the front in separate rows and monitored very closely

    -- metal detection devices were used only on certain adults to detect the use of any forbidden metal devices

    all these new rules are being used to prevent cheating by ADULT TEST TAKERS, so i dont understand at all your argument about adult test takers are not guilty

    there is a very good reason college board set up these new rules only for adults



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  • 2018eastorwest2018eastorwest 301 replies32 threadsRegistered User Member
    edited March 2016
    @hunt - agreed. But given that the terms prohibit anyone who takes the test from discussing any of the test contents with anyone - ever, it seems like there wouldn't be much money in return for all of the expense (for anyone who planned to follow the terms). A completely honest tutor from another country who wanted to take the test as soon as possible for time management strategies, etc., could do so with the 4 practice exams that were released, and then the May test in Asia. I am sure that there were some adults who didn't intend to cheat, just as there were some who did. It just seems more likely that someone would expect to gain a real benefit from spending all of the money/time to take the test, and I doubt that "time management" would qualify for most.
    edited March 2016
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  • commiecome1commiecome1 2 replies0 threadsRegistered User New Member
    also for those who desire to understand how cheating is conducted by adult test takers, particularly those of Asian descent, let me provide a few more details

    -- 5 or more adult test-takers (sometimes 10 or even more) will enter center for memorization purposes (one will memorize 10 or so questions one section, vice versa..)..there is no one single teacher who can memorize entire test by himself/herself..when u see 10 or more adults taking exam in one place all talking to each other in chinese who happen to know each other, now u understand why..these types are usually loud and don't care to get caught, because they can't really be caught for just memorizing

    -- adult test takers will take secret cameras to try to film entire test..usually these types work alone and are very discreet and try to avoid detection

    -- adult test taker will take test, write down answers on small piece of paper, go to bathroom leave answers or crib **** there for the student to pick up during break time

    -- adult test taker will actually use forged id and take test for someone

    -- adult test taker will take test, memorize answers and after test is done, send answers to someone taking same version of exam in europe or elsewhere where same exam is used..exploiting time differences still very possible

    -- adult test taker will travel to new zealand, take exam, figure out which test is reused, inform compatriot in china who will then inform students ready to take test several hours later

    -- adult test taker will take test in same country, memorize answers, go to bathroom , transmit answers through cellphone to student in another or same testing center, who then checks his or her phone during break for answers

    -- adult tester (carrier) will swap real test given with another test while proctor is collecting tests (usually done when in presence of several other adults and proctor is lax) and thereby steal test..this is what i mean by "running" not literally

    as u can clearly see, there are many many ways adults cheat on the sat..sigh



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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    edited March 2016
    @jgoggs: "Really now, @2018eastorwest , there are only so many times I am willing to cover the exact same ground, "

    Actually you seem more than willing, eager really, to cover the exact same ground ad nauseam. You patrol this thread for anyone who posts a view that conflicts with your own and brow beat the poor poster who hasn't bothered to read your dozens of other nearly identical, point-by-point diatribes.

    Please, folks, stop posting on this thread and let it die a natural death as it slips from the first page!

    On the contrary, @GABaseballMom , it looks as though the posts I made yesterday were the first I had made in a week. In other words, (1) I haven't been patrolling for anyone who posts a view that disagrees with my own and (2) I haven't bumped the thread even once. If you can provide links to any posts I made between March 11 and March 17, exclusive, I will be happy to stand corrected.

    The poster whom I was addressing, moreover, certainly has read my posts. He or she has been engaging me since the beginning and continues to try to goad me by mischaracterizing my posts or feigning ignorance on matters about which he/she has already been sufficiently informed:
    SO, back to your question - why would people need to fly in from China (if they were not going to cheat - i.e. use the info gained from the test for monetary gain; illegally/improperly "share" the info on the test with clients)? I'm not understanding why any adult non-students from Asia would book flights and accommodations and spend all that money and time to take the March test - just to uncover flaws? Is that your explanation?

    (1) Chinese nationals always have to fly out of mainland China to take the SAT because the SAT is not given in mainland China, except at international schools attended exclusively by foreign nationals. This point has already been explained and is also common knowledge.

    (2) The March test date is available in the U.S. only. Anyone who wanted to take the March test had to do so in the U.S. (or possibly also Canada; I would have to look it up). Again, this has already been mentioned, and it is also common knowledge.

    (3) I never said that tutors would take the test in order to uncover flaws. I said that their ability to uncover flaws was a potential benefit to the public of allowing them to take the test. See the June 2015 misprint/timing fiasco, for example. Yet again, all of this has been discussed already.

    (4) As to why tutors would want to take the test--that point has already been covered at length by me and others, and it boils down to professional development. I can assure you that teachers at your local high school spend plenty of time in seminars, training, etc. to become acquainted with new textbooks, new technologies, new standardized tests, etc. This is no different.

    (5) Finally, for what seems like the hundredth time, (A) College Board did not ban only adult test takers from China; it banned essentially everyone over 21; (B) it did not ban them from all tests; it banned them from the March test only; (C) these points, plus the lack of any credible explanation of why adults would pose more of a cheating risk than anyone else, call into significant question the College Board's rationale for cancelling these adult registrations; (D) if College Board can cancel these March registrations without a credible explanation, we can only imagine what other rights it is going to assert in the coming years. As soon as College Board takes a similar action that affects domestic students (it has already taken similar actions against international students) I suspect some of you who post remarks like this ...
    but I think the bottom line is that most of us are not terribly concerned about the right of adults who are not applying to college to take a test designed for students who are.

    ... are going to realize how badly you missed the point entirely.

    Finally, since I am being accused of "condescension," let me mention that many of the antagonists here are violating the explicit terms of use of this forum:

    https://auth.collegeconfidential.com/module.php/hobsonspolicies/policy.php?policy=tos
    Our forum is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place, and one in which members can post without their motives, intelligence, or other personal characteristics being questioned by others.

    And some seem to have a rather extreme preoccupation with this topic. If you follow the link below, for example, you will see some familiar faces from this thread, announcing that they have spent their free time compiling lists of students talking about test questions on College Confidential, urging College Confidential to turn over identifying information to College Board, and so on:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/community-forum-issues/1817098-cheating-on-sat-forum.html#latest

    I think those of you complaining about "condescension" should keep in mind that in many parts of the internet, continually goading people by mischaracterizing what they have said, hijacking threads to attack people's motives, and threatening to--or actually trying to--"dox" people can invite much more severe consequences than just "condescension": consequences like having your right to post simply revoked.

    All of that said, I have no interest in keeping this thread alive any longer, provided various antagonists can break their addiction to antagonism....
    edited March 2016
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  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 12739 replies235 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    it did not ban them from all tests; it banned them from the March test only

    Presumably because March isn't being released with Q&A service; May will be.
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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    They are not banned from June, October, November, December, or January either. Already covered...
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  • jym626jym626 55333 replies2878 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    While I have no love lost for CB, they owe us no explanation
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  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 12739 replies235 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    edited March 2016
    How do you know they aren't banned from those months? Perhaps they will be. They didn't make the call on March until after registration.

    Also, October, January and May are all testing dates with QAS.
    edited March 2016
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  • jgoggsjgoggs 208 replies22 threadsRegistered User Junior Member
    I am going to try very hard to make this my last post on this thread.
    How do you know they aren't banned from those months? Perhaps they will be. They didn't make the call on March until after registration.

    Because I know of people over age 21 who are registered for dates other than May, including dates that have not traditionally been QAS dates. I have elaborated elsewhere in the thread.

    May I politely suggest that rather than playing the "how do you know" game with topics that have already been explored at length, you simply review the thread--or else just create a College Board account with an adult birth year and see whether or not you can get through the registration process.
    Also, October, January and May are all testing dates with QAS.

    Traditionally, those have been QAS dates, and traditionally QAS dates have been the released dates. As has already been discussed earlier in the thread, however, College Board transferred some adult March registrees to June if those adult March registrees had already registered for May on their own. June has not traditionally been a QAS/released date.
    While I have no love lost for CB, they owe us no explanation

    Oh no? If your goal is simply to rack up an astronomical post count, then I can see how your ambitions are well served by dropping into a thread like this, posting your one-liner, and then moving on to another thread to do the same, and then another, and then another.

    If, on the other hand, you were interested in an actual discussion, you might wish to elaborate: Does College Board ever owe explanations for its actions? If not, why not? What distinguishes organizations that owe explanations for their actions from those that do not? If College Board sometimes owes explanations, then what distinguishes cases in which it does owe explanations from cases in which it does not?

    These are fruitful topics for actual, productive discussion, but as I said, I'm going to try to resist responding to any more one-liners or how-do-you-knows.
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  • OHMomof2OHMomof2 12739 replies235 threadsRegistered User Senior Member
    Because I know of people over age 21 who are registered for dates other than May, including dates that have not traditionally been QAS dates.

    A lot of over 21s were registered for March too. But they didn't get to take the test. CB could do it again, was my point.

    That said, I also don't care if non-students can't take the non-QAS test sittings, or if they can't take the very first one, whichever turns out to be the case.
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  • skieuropeskieurope 38873 replies6866 threadsSuper Moderator Super Moderator
    MODERATOR'S NOTE:
    I'll assume that there will be no further back and forth trying to make a point. Per Terms of Service, College Confidential is not a debating society. Please feel free to express your point of view and your respectful disagreement of someone else's. However, you are unlikely to convert anyone to your POV so once you've given your opinion, no need to restate it again and again, here or again on a different thread. If you really want to have a discussion on the subject with another user, feel free to PM.
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