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Maybe Smith should follow Colgate’s new policy.

roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
edited February 2006 in Smith College
{{{Colgate did just get rid of online application fees and the SAT2 requirements, which most likely resulted in far more unqualified candidates.
Lots of people will take a chance applying for a school (even if they know they're a long shot) when it is free and you don't have to take extra tests.

{{{Btw, Colgate probably did that (free app, no SAT2s) to get more applicants, so they can reject more and end up with a lower (ie down to 27%) acceptance rate. It makes them look even more selective than they are.}}}}

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Post edited by roadlesstraveled on
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Replies to: Maybe Smith should follow Colgate’s new policy.

  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    BTW- My post was sarcastic. The competition for perceived exclusivity and manipulating yield, hence, effecting the rankings is getting out of control
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Registered User Posts: 13 New Member
    Smith does that already. SAT II aren't required and the online application is free.
  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    {SAT II aren't required}

    No, but they’re recommended. Whenever SAT11s are recommended by a college most students assume they need to submit SAT 11 tests in order to stay completive. Remove the (SAT11s are recommended, as Colgate has) from the Smith webpage and it would be interesting to see to what degree there is an increase in applications.

    I’m not advocating doing so. I believe the tests are useful.


    Another interesting study would be to see how many low income students don’t apply to Smith because taking a couple SAT11s is expensive (in their view)-- therefore they perceive their chances of admission are nill without SAT11s



    Holyoke, Middlebury, etc., already have made the SAT reasoning test optional. I’m sure their beliefs were along the lines of Bowdoin, Bates, et al, regarding their accurate prediction of college success. But I’m also sure they knew they would get a moderate application increase resulting in a lower acceptance rate and higher SAT averages to submit to the ranking services.


    If you look at Bowdoin’s or Bates published SAT scores they’re higher than Smith’s by 50-75 points, or so, But 25 % of Bowdoin’s, and an astounding 50% of Bates students, didn’t submit SATs so they aren’t calculated in the averages. How would Bowdoin and Bates compare in the rankings if the absent SAT scores were included in the stats? Colgate doesn’t even require the writing section of the ACT.
    The point I was trying to get across, many colleges are changing their requirements to manipulate the statistics..

    {{online application is free}}

    You’re correct. I forgot online, in addition to legacy apps, are exempt from the fee. Trying to recall app requirements at numerous colleges is an exercise in futility at my age
  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    in order to stay completive. }}}

    oppss, multitasking again....Competitive
  • Insane_MembraneInsane_Membrane Registered User Posts: 509 Member
    I disagree, by eliminating certain testing requirements are getting a wider spectrum of more qualified students. Firstly test scores only measure to a certain level the aptitude of students. I blew my sats but I am the valedictorian of my class, and I know many other students lower sats scores but are extremely hard workers and are doing great. If you look at statistics at SAT optional schools, you'll find that many of the students who didn't submit SAT scores, generally because they were low, often on average did similiar to test submitters. I am not saying that all people will low sats scores are all smart, but you'll find that does with lower score who get accepted to this higher institutions do well because they work hard. Some to prove that they are just as good as high test takers and others because they truly have the aptitude. But eliminating test scores or making them optional, many hard working students, like myself, can get oppurtunities to challenge themselves at higher institutions.
  • Insane_MembraneInsane_Membrane Registered User Posts: 509 Member
    In case you were wondering where I was pulling my statistics:http://www.fairtest.org/facts/satvalidity.html

    "Bates College, which dropped all pre-admission testing requirements in 1990, first conducted several studies to determine the most powerful variables for predicting success at the college. One study showed that students' self-evaluation of their "energy and initiative" added more to the ability to predict performance at Bates than did either Math or Verbal SAT scores. In comparing five years of enrollees who submitted SAT scores with those who didn't, Bates found that while "non-submitters" averaged 160 points lower on the SAT I, their freshman GPA was only five one-hundredths of a point lower than that of "submitters.""
  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    {{I disagree}}

    Disagree with what?

    What I said was, b/c 50% of the SAT scores that aren’t included in the stats (as you stated, the 50% not submitted are 160 points lower) it effects the US News&WW, et al rankings.
    The point was, many colleges are now making the SAT optional to increase their SAT averages, or middle 50% range, and increase applications in an effort manipulate the rankings.

    I never stated the Bates students weren't extremely intelligent, motivated and very qualified whether they submitted the SAT or not. My daughter was accepted at Bates. I happen to love the college--Lewiston is a matter. Sorry :) I agree with you, the SAT test isn’t a great indicator of college performance with regard to certain students. You’re a prefect example.
    Smith is notorious for ignoring the SAT results when other facts warrant admission. I’m in total agreement with that philosophy. Do they goof on a few? You bet! But the students who become extremely successful b/c they’re given a chance are worth the risk

    I certainly didn’t intend to malign you or your fellow students who didn’t submit the SAT.
    If it appeared to you that’s what I did, please accept my sincere apology .
  • Insane_MembraneInsane_Membrane Registered User Posts: 509 Member
    I am so sorry, misread and miswrote. No need to apologize, I just think that colleges use this strategy to increase selectivity. It maybe a side effect, but the ultimate goal is to attract more qualified students.

    Again sorry, I hope I didn't offend anyone, it came out alot stronger than I intended.
  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    {{Again sorry, I hope I didn't offend anyone, it came out alot stronger than I intended.}}

    You came across as a very bright Bates student intelligently defending a very valid point of view. All is good. You’re going to do well in life. :)
  • minimini Registered User Posts: 26,431 Senior Member
    "Smith is notorious for ignoring the SAT results when other facts warrant admission."

    This actually is not a decision of the Admissions Office, but a 2002 directive from the President's Office, following a 3-year study by the faculty and Office of Institutional Research, in which, for attending students, they could find no relationship between SAT scores and student performance at Smith, and that the use of the scores worked against Smith's historic commitment to economic diversity.
  • interesteddadinteresteddad Registered User Posts: 24,177 Senior Member
    Mini:

    Smith obviously does not believe that or they would not require SATI or ACT scores for admission.
  • minimini Registered User Posts: 26,431 Senior Member
    "Smith obviously does not believe that or they would not require SATI or ACT scores for admission."

    You have no clue as to what they believe or don't believe. (You forget that the admissions office has asked me to consult on the admissions of homeschoolers.) I suggest you try again.
  • roadlesstraveledroadlesstraveled Registered User Posts: 1,146 Senior Member
    {{Smith obviously does not believe that or they would not require SATI or ACT scores for admission}}

    Your assertion is interesting and makes one wonder, why does Smith recommend SAT subjects tests when low income and minority students are adversely affected the greatest by doing so?
  • stacystacy Registered User Posts: 1,100 Senior Member
    i've thought for a long time that smith should stop requiring the SAT I...when Mt. Holyoke did it, they found that the difference between submitters and non-submitters was equivalent to one letter grade in one class in four years (ie, basically nonexistent).

    it would fit with smith's committment to economic/racial diversity and probably raise our US news ranking too. if people with clout at the admissions office would push this point, i'd be thrilled!
  • minimini Registered User Posts: 26,431 Senior Member
    Actually, after Smith did the study, they found that there were other uses for SATs other than purely for admission. They ranged from organizing special enrichment classes for first-year premed (they don't let you AP out of them - my d. was offered a place in one), to ensuring they have enough engineering and math students (they could tell best by which SAT IIs were taken), to the small number of merit awards (yes, they acknowledge trying to wrest candidates from Harvard; my d. was the beneficiary). The most important use is in the Office of Institutional Research, as they are able to compare performance of low-income students with lower scores with higher income students with higher ones. They are unable to do that under an "optional" program, or doing away with them entirely.

    After the study was completed, Ruth Simmons did consider getting rid of them altogether, and decided they were useful to have, even when de-emphasized in the admissions process per se. Others (including myself) might have made a different decision, but it wasn't like they hadn't taken three years to think it through. (And, yes, making them optional would likely raise the median score 75-100 points. So?)
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