Thanks @SlackerMomMD. That was my impression of Reed. I attended a TAG conference on campus a few years ago and one of the hosts was the Reed AO. He was very frank about the type of kid that would thrive at Reed. I also question CTCL selectivity. I suspect it’s higher as those kids who do apply are self selecting that type of school, which are often not on the radar.
@Maggiedog - Thanks for the link. Clearly the Ivies and similar have so much to offer students due to prestige and fat endowments. If I do my math correctly (and I may not have) there are roughly 53K or so seniors who are in the top 3 percentile, clearly more than there are seats at the tt institutions. Thankfully, many schools that are not Ivies offer strong programs.
I think one problem is that the top merit offers at the LAC’s are in the range of $20-25,000 or less. For example, the Marquis at Lafayette has a value of $24,000. My S got the Marquis back when it was $20,000, and also got merit aid from Colgate. Both were too expensive for us, and their COA with merit was still much higher than the Ivies. D2 is currently looking at Dickinson, and their best merit award is also $20,000. That still leaves to the family to pay the rather staggering sum of $40-45,000 per year for an LAC, which is more than they’d pay at a state school. So for some the choice will boil down to top elite with FA or state–not top elite or good private LAC.
@TheGFG Good morning. For a couple of years now, Lafayette has added the Marquis Fellowship at $40000. That’s a higher tier, of course, than the $24K Marquis Scholarship.
I don’t necessarily think CTCL schools are marketed at B students, but they end up enrolling those our of necessity… The ivies and the other top dogs on the college food chain end up scooping up most of the top kids, leaving the second tier student as their bread and butter. I’m sure CTCL schools would love to have the top kids, but the reality is that they just can’t yield them.
Another thought - how many of the CTCL colleges are need-aware/gap students? That might be another reason they don’t get the top kids.
A part of the article (the headline) really resonated with me. I think there’s an over-glorification of getting in to the top schools. Some parents (and students) focus way too much effort on trying to build the perfect HS resume which will give them a chance at a top school. I think this is bad for a variety of reasons:
getting in to a top school can be a very bad outcome for some kids. Do you really want to get in only to struggle? My Harvard colleague had friends that failed out. (Though maybe those kids don't get in anymore?)
all this pressure on HS kids can also lead to horrible outcomes - there have been multiple suicides in Palo Alto, to the point that they now have a guard at all the train crossings... :-(
all of these kids with stellar resumes means that no one has a "good" chance anymore. I don't envy the admissions offices at these schools. How can you really tell who the best kids are?
paradoxically, because of all this emphasis on getting in to top schools, I think the prestige of the top schools will actually weaken over time. There are so many "top" kids now that are somewhat indistinguishable, many of them will end up going to second-tier schools. (My hypothesis is that some of the kids with stellar resumes will "trick" the admissions office, and get in over more deserving (i.e. smarter) kids whose resume isn't quite as perfect.) So over time, I think the kids at the second-tier schools will get better and better, and the gap in student quality will decrease.
I think it’s a shame, because it’s bad for the top schools, and it’s bad for the kids.
@TatinG No. The fixation is entirely nationwide and even international. Anecdotal evidence from rather small communities is not a basis for analysis of trends regarding university aspirations of entire swathes of the population.
My D is an honor student with top grades but she didn’t apply to any ivies. I forced her to but she didn’t want to. She was afraid that she would have been rejected because of her ACT score. Maybe I should have tried harder. Maybe she could have been accepted. Instead, now she’s going to a private university that is way too expensive probably as much as ivies or less.
@NYHofstraMom, if she had Ivy-caliber stats, she should have been eligible for big merit dollars at all kinds of schools, including Hofstra. There’s a HUGE range of schools between, say, Cornell and Hofstra. Not sure how she landed there (assuming that based on your name).
I am going to take the minority opinion side of this issue. Every year there is an article that demonizes Harvard or Yale or a rant from a high school student who didn’t get into an Ivy League school, and people applaud. It is human nature to view those at the top with disdain, and in this case I think unfair. Yes there are examples of students who got into an Ivy League school because of family connections or some other elitist reason and not necessarily on their merits as a student. But, the vast majority of students who are accepted to Harvard or Yale are top-notch stellar students. These people exist, and it is fair and even right for them to have a place to go that is filled with other top-notch stellar students. People like to say that they can get just as good an education at a good state university as they can at Harvard. Some will even find reasons to say that they or their kid got a better education at said state university than they could have at Harvard. The only valid reason I can think of for that is that said student could not have competed with the other students at Harvard or Yale if admitted and so there was more opportunity at a lesser school. That might be fine for that one student, but that doesn’t mean that thinking applies to all who are students at Harvard or Yale or any of the Ivy League schools.
I have known a handful of off-the-chart geniuses in my lifetime. One got addicted to drugs partly because his parents didn’t support his value on education. He now works a blue-collar job. Another is enabled by his parents and he sits in their basement writing the Great American novel that will never be. The other three went to Stanford, Harvard, and Princeton. I know other smart people who went to other colleges. Some became very successful, but they aren’t the same as those students who went to those top of the top schools. For most very brilliant people, being around other brilliant people is a huge want. They are tired of being by far the smartest person in the school. So, am I sick of reading about golden kids getting into Harvard? Heck no. I am happy for them and optimistic for our future as a race of people that we are still churning out brilliant people. Our world needs uber talented, brilliant people, and they should be celebrated more than they are. In the world of high school basketball, there is a saying…“the parents want the four best players and their kid to be on the floor”. Well, for most parents, their kid doesn’t deserve to be on the floor.
I agree with much of what you said, but I think the reality is more complex than that.
About 30 years ago, I was accepted to a couple of top-10 schools for undergrad but didn’t attend for financial reasons and instead attended the state flagship on a full ride scholarship. I was in the honors program, but more specifically, I was in a special part of the honors program for the top 1% of admitted students that received the full ride. Most of our core classes were together, taught by the best university professors, and I am still friends with several people from that group.
My friends in that group were every bit as smart as those who attended HYPSM, and I know that because most of us attended a HYPSM or other elite colleges for graduate school. In fact the single brightest person I have ever known, I met as part of that top 1% group, and I have known many intelligent and extremely successful people.
My point is that in any large university, you can “find your tribe” of highly intelligent people, particularly in the honors programs. Sure it won’t be thousands of people like you will find at Harvard et. al, but in the end does it matter that it is only ~100 people?
@hebegebe - I don’t disagree that you can find your vibe at a school other than an Ivy or Stanford or MIT. I am married to one who did and then she went to graduate school at Stanford. For those in the top 1% though (and really, well within the top 1%), it is harder to find a group of brilliant people at a flagship state school than it would be at a more “elite” college, and with more of them at one of those elite schools, it is easier to find ones that you connect with (as not all brilliant people are the same of course, and just like with any group, some can be downright annoying). This is especially true today than it was 30 years ago as all of the Ivies and Stanford and most other elite colleges in the US have removed the financial barrier that used to be there. Make under ~$65,000 and you will go for free (room and board included) to most of them. Make under $125,000, and Stanford will give you full tuition (many of the other top schools have similar deals).
As the author gets “sick” of hearing about golden kids getting accepted to Harvard, I get sick of attempts to discredit Ivy League schools and the like every year. Can a person get a good education at a state school somewhere? Of course. Is the overall experience, including the education and the opportunity going to be as good at one of the very top universities in this country? No.
@stepay
“Can a person get a good education at a state school somewhere? Of course. Is the overall experience, including the education and the opportunity going to be as good at one of the very top universities in this country? No.”
This is what many people find off-putting. Because such statements are hyperbolic. No it is not true that the overall experience at an elite school is better than the overall experience at a state flagship for every student. That is such a ridiculous statement to make.
And the author wasn’t talking about the sort of come one/come all.publics or low privates some here use as counterpoint. The choice is not TT or crappy.
Besides, you know the TTs today are not just little enclaves for the old def of “brilliant” or genius. Read much from MIT?
Elsewhere on CC, we fret about teen suicide circles, the untold thousands?millions? spent on tutoring and extra-curricular activities and the enormous pressure placed on kids to seek validation through elite college admissions. We eschew cheaters, the tiger parents and the overzealous coaching/grooming of special snowflakes.
So it’s disheartening that an article encouraging parents to dial it down and maybe even opt out of this national obsession threatens those who value their bragging rights. Whether Ivy campuses have the most special of all snowflakes is not the point at all.
The point is success beyond your wildest dreams is possible with a less-than-Ivy education. This is a positive message. I don’t see a downside to OP’s message at all.
There are kids on every college campus in America majoring in Beer Pong. I’m not bashing Ivy’s or other elite U’s, not making a commentary on Honors programs at State U’s, or making a value judgement on community colleges.
But anyone who goes into the process with their own kids who believes that somehow there is a sorting stick which will prevent their snowflake from dealing with a drunk or promiscuous or lazy or videogame addicted roommate/fraternity brother/sorority sister/classmate is delusional.
If parents were a little less clueless about what actually goes on in college and a little less blinded by marketing: “Colleges which Change Lives!” (as if the others don’t); “Ivy League” (as if graduating from Berkeley or Cal Tech in Comp Sci wasn’t more prestigious than Comp Sci at Dartmouth); “Marketable Degree” (as if any parent was smart enough to predict the worldwide glut in oil which led to the oil companies and the entire energy aftermarket cut their hiring of petroleum engineers), etc. their kids would be a lot better off.
But with the honors programs that many state flagships offer, the quality of the education and peer group is far better than people might otherwise expect. I think too few people seriously consider that as a viable option.
Some states don’t have flagships. And the SUNY honors programs I looked at (a long time ago) were not a fit for my older son.) But I don’t disagree that for many honors programs will provide a very viable alternative.