Hamas Is In Control

<p>Seriously...if those are the sites he's using to justify himself, he's better off being ignored. Those have no credibility whatsoever.</p>

<p>"They aren't going taking over the government and bombing everyone else. " </p>

<p>The Zionists didn't "bomb everyone else." On the contrary, the Arab states surrounding Israel declared war on it minutes after its founded, and (in a typical Arab failure) they all lost to a rag-tag IDF made up of inexperienced immigrants.</p>

<p>"What's there to plot? If someone is planning to bomb a town from the air, regardless of whether or not they have targeted a building, there will be a highly likely chance that children will get hurt."</p>

<p>True. But the Israeli army tries to use smart bombs and commandos to minimize civilian casualties. Detonating a nail bomb in a disco or indiscriminately firing AK-47s at a schoolbus is not an attempt to minimize casualties, nor is it an attempt to merely incite terror. It is meant to murder ANYONE who happens to be in the blast or firing zone.</p>

<p>[qoute]Yes, your venerable source tells you that all Hamas terrorists use innocent men, women, and children, yet at the same time Hamas makes schools, orphanages, and hospitals for them. Face it, Hamas got in control not because they advocate suicide bombings but moreso because they help the palestinian community, which is something Fatah really did not do. [/qoute]</p>

<p>Guess what? Israel has schools, orphanages, and hospitals too. So according to your viewpoint Israel cannot do any wrong... </p>

<p>[qoute]If someone came to your town, bulldozed your house down, took your father prisoner claiming he aids terrorists, and left you and your family on the street, would you be mad and would you join a group that tries to defend your family? [/qoute]</p>

<p>Of course I would fight back-against the military. Remember the resistance in WWII? They blew up trains full of Nazi soldiers, sabotaged military equipment, ambushed military convoys, but did they ever go into Berlin and blow up restaraunts full of innocent Germans? No. The Palestinians can do the same thing. </p>

<p>[qoute]ever wonder how many of those magazines have bullets in them?


<p>I would be willing to guess all of them, seeing as how they are firing the weapons into the air. The Palestinians may be poor, but if they can afford AK-47s then they can afford the ammunition which happens to be much cheaper. And they certainly do a good job of fighting amongst themselves with those bullets that you claim don't exist...</p>

<p>[qoute]Do you expect innocent Palestinian children who are walking through the rubble on their way to school to try and fight off the fighter jet that is bombing thier town from a mile in the air?[/qoute]</p>

<p>No. I expect them to fight against the terrorist group that is holed up in the hospital next door making bombs. </p>

<p>Israeli jets don't target civilians. Can you find any instance in the last 5 years of an Israeli aircraft specifically targeting civilians? I can find a few hundred instances over the past 5 years of Palestinian terrorists specifically targeting Israeli civilians...</p>

<p>Now, once again, yes or no- Is Hamas a terrorist group in your opinion? That is all I am asking of you, and you have been elusive thus far...</p>

<p>[qoute]They aren't going taking over the government and bombing everyone else.


<p>Of course not...they are Hispanic, not Palestinian.</p>

<p>"So in other words, it is ok for Palestinians to kill Israelis but it is not ok for Israelis to kill Palestinians?"</p>

<p>What?? If Palestinians kill an Israeli without just cause, then yes, Israeli's have the right to retaliate. If Israeli's kill a Palestinian without just cause, then yes, the palestinians have a right to retaliate.</p>

<p>"Hamas CAN go against the IDF. America defeated the most powerful military in the world (Great Britain) twice, and we did it without blowing up pubs in England."</p>

<p>Perhaps you have to go back to your elementary school history book though by the way you're debating it seems that you're still in elementary school. We would have been defeated if it had not been France coming in and saving our derrieres. We really stood no chance against Britain without them, and the times were different. Weaponry was not as advanced as it is today. Now Israel can press a button and launch a missile at a Palestinian town from a hundred miles away. Back then they had to face each other on a battle field and who ever won won. For the War of 1812 the British put themselves at a strategic disadvantage, and again since both sides were more or less equal in terms of military arms and technology, America had more strategized battle plans.</p>

<p>"Here's a thought- Maybe, if the Palestinians are so "oppressed" they could take after MLK and Ghandi and use non-violent protest? Last time I checked MLK did just fine without killing every white person that he saw." </p>

<p>So now first off, you're comparing Israeli's and thier laws to slave masters/KKK type people and Jim crow laws and you're comparing Israeli's to the British Empire who sought out land to take advantage of its resources. Well that hurts your argument by portraying Israeli's in a derogatory manner. Second, the British ruled hundreds of thousands of Indians in india with a handful of soldier and it took those Indians and Ghandi years to gain peace. If they had organized and revolted, im sure they would have had thier independence quicker and today would be in a better state.</p>

<p>"And you didn't answer my question- Is Hamas a terrorist group, yes or no? I didn't ask you about Israel, I am asking you about Hamas."</p>

<p>I answered your question with my own, but just to float your boat, no i do not view hamas as a terrorist group, i view them as a revolutionary group who use all means necessary to try to gain the proper rights and freedom for thier people. I didn't ask you about Hamas, I am asking you about Israel.</p>

<p>Israel has its military trained and weapons and artilery supplied by the strongest army in the world, the United States. Have you never paid attention to the news that when there is a suicide bombing Israel goes in and destroys towns!! and villages!!! with their F-16!!! Fighter Jets!!! Do you not listen or are you heedless of the fact that the Israeli army is one of the strongest in the world and up against a government that is unarmed and only means of security is their faith. Do you not know that Israel is heavily fortifying itself with its 14-feet walls that are deeply rooted into Palestinian territory? Do you not know of the 100's of Israeli Checkpoints that at every corner in Palestinian territory that makes it impossible for a Palestinian to travel especially to work. And now you the 14-foot walls going up secluding the Palestinians from the outside world. Do you not hear about the Palestinian woman who is suffering from labor and simply is not allowed to go to the hospital because she does not have an ID on her at a checkpoint and her husband is shot point blank for trying to reverse the car and the woman also dies with her unborn child still in her??? Do you not realize the factuality of the matter. Do you not understand or look at the pictures of IDF soldiers firing shots at little children from their tanks when all they have are stones. Do you not understand the leverage of Israel over the Palestinians? This is all but cowardness when a mother and her husband are walking with their 3year old child when an IDF points a gun at him making him cry while they look in disgust thinking the child is going to harm him. Cowardness. The Jews have always been like this. Claiming anybody who hates Jews is an anti-semite and portraying that upon the Palestinians when they realize the true definition of a Semite. Newsflash--- Abraham had 2 sons --- Ishmael and Issac. The hewbrews the descendents of Issac and the Arabs the descendants of Ishmael. But just like they reject the beloved son of Mary Jesus Christ they reject Ishmael and they have killed a lot of their other Propehts. </p>

<p>The nonsense that is floating around with Hamas calling for the destruction of Palestine and that the United States will not support them or will the Israelis talk to Hamas because they want them destroyed is bogus . Trying to make yourself look like the oppressed when you are actually the oppressor is a sign of cowardness.</p>

<p>You do not view Hamas as a terrorist group?</p>


<p>Let me refresh your memory...</p>

<p>September 30, 2004- On Wednesday September 29, 2004 Hamas militants launch Kassam rocket into the Israeli town of Sderot. Two children, ages 2 and 4, were killed. The attack occurred during the Jewish holiday , Sukkot. The children were visitng their grandparents at the time of their death. The 2-year old was identified as Dorit Aniso (female) and the 4-year old was Yuval Abebeh (male). Ha'Aretz Daily News quoted two witnesses to the attack. The first, Ronen Edri, saw a boy with head injuries. The second, Haviv Ben Abbo, saw another child with no legs. This confirms reports that aside from the two children killed there were others injured. </p>

<p>August 31, 2004- On August 31, 2004, 2 Hamas terrorists boarded Egged buses number 7 and 12. The buses were traveling on Beersheva’s main street, Rager Street near City Hall. At approximately 2:55PM the two Hamas terrorists detonated themselves. The 2 buses were only 100 meters apart. 14 died on scene and another 4 on the way to Soraka Medical Center in Beersheva. ZAKA, disaster victims association reported that all of the dead were passengers from both buses; no bystanders were killed. </p>

<p>September 8, 2004- Details: At least seven people were killed and more than 30 were injured by a suicide bombing attack at a Jerusalem café.
Despite the presence of two security guards, the terrorist managed to get several meters inside Café Hillel before detonating the explosives on his person. The café, located in on the main street of the city’s German Colony, is a popular meeting place for local residents. Witnesses said the terrorist was intercepted near the entrance to the restaurant by several customers, whose suspicions were aroused. They began struggling with him, and managed to shove him out of the restaurant. It was then that he blew up. Police sappers searched cars and trash bins near the scene, in order to head off any attempt to launch a second attack against responding rescue teams and medics. </p>

<p>September 8, 2004- Details: Eight people were killed and some thirty wounded when a suicide bomber detonated explosives at a crowded bus stop in central Israel. The bomber targeted a group of soldiers and civilians waiting for rides near the army base of Zrifin. Witnesses said the bomber got out of a car with a leather briefcase at around 17:50, and set off his explosives almost immediately. </p>

<p>August 19, 2003- Twenty-one people were killed, including five children, in a suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem Tuesday night. Thirteen people were seriously wounded, while another 13 sustained moderate to serious injuries. A total of 102 people were hospitalized.The explosion ripped through a packed city bus shortly after 21:00, as the bus passed through the neighborhood of Shmuel HaNavi. The bus, an extended accordion-style vehicle with two passenger sections, was packed to capacity. The bomb was apparently set off in the middle of the bus to cause maximum damage. At lease five children were among the dead, while 40 children were wounded, four critically. The bus was totally destroyed by the explosion, and a second bus that had pulled up alongside had its windows blown out. </p>

<p>June 11, 2003- A blast on a commuter bus in downtown Jerusalem killed at least fifteen passengers and injured more than 50 Wednesday afternoon. The blast occurred at about 17:30--the height of afternoon rush hour traffic--as the bus neared the intersection of Jaffa Street and King George Blvd., the city's two main thoroughfares. A preliminary investigation revealed that the bomber had boarded the bus at a stop a few meters from the site of the attack. He was dressed as an Haredi Jew. As the bus pulled off, the bomber, who was standing in the front of the vehicle, detonated his explosive belt. The bus careened forward and came to a halt outside the tall Clal building on Jaffa Road. The bomber was identified as a resident of Hebron. Police are investigating whether he came to the city a few days before. He is believed to have been sent on his mission by a senior Hamas activist, Abdullah Kawasme, who is on Israel's wanted list. The bomber was identified as Abdel Madi Shabneh, 18, of Hebron </p>

<p>May 18, 2003- At least seven people were killed and 20 wounded, when a suicide bomber blew up a bus in northern Jerusalem early Sunday morning. A second suicide bomber blew himself up half an hour later, at the entrance to the Dahit al-Barid neighborhood in north Jerusalem. The bomber was the only casualty in that attack. Security sources said the bomber was disguised as a religious Jew and was wearing a prayer shawl and a yarmulke, creating the impression that he was on his way home from morning prayers. He boarded the bus near Pisgat Ze'ev at shortly before 6:00 in the morning. </p>

<p>March 5, 2003- A powerful blast ripped apart a city bus in the northern Israeli city of Haifa Wednesday afternoon, killing at least fifteen passengers and injuring more than 40. The blast, which occurred at roughly 14:20 in the afternoon, as the bus passed the city's the Carmel Center, was apparently detonated by a suicide bomber inside the bus. The bus was left a charred wreck, and witnesses said that bodies and body parts were scattered across the road. The bus travels a winding route through the city, serving several schools and Haifa University, as well as residential areas on the Carmel ridge. Officials said that the bus would have been packed with university students at the time of the blast. Most of the dead were soldiers returning home and teenagers who use the bus to get to and from school. The bombing was timed to coincide with the hour that schools get out.</p>

<p>November 21, 2002- A suicide bomber struck a municipal bus in Jerusalem this morning, killing at least ten people and injuring nearly 50. The bombing targeted the number 20 Jerusalem bus as it passed through a quiet residential neighborhood at the height of morning rush hour.The bus bombing occurred at roughly 7:15, an hour when city buses are crowded with school children on their way the school. Area schools scrambled to assemble lists of those who had arrived safely to school while worried parents frantically phoned schools and hospitals. Witnesses said children's sandwiches and schoolbooks lay scattered in the street around the burned out bus. "There are students among the wounded," Yeruham Mandola, spokesman for the Magen David Adom paramedics' service, told Israel Radio. He could not say how many of the wounded were school children. The bomber detonated his explosives just after the bus had picked up a group of children and adults. The bus had only one final stop to make on its route. Police sources said there was no specific warning of this particular attacks. However the General Security Services has reported that between 4 and 12 terrorist incidents are foiled every day by security forces. </p>

<p>September 19, 2002- Six people were killed and more than 50 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated a large bomb on a municipal bus in Tel-Aviv. The blast occurred aboard bus No. 4, at the corner of Allenby and Rothschild Streets at just before 13:00 local time. Allenby Street, one of Tel-Aviv's main traffic arteries, is lined with shops and sidewalk cafes. The bomber apparently boarded the bus across from the city's main synagogue and, while still on the stairs, detonated his device. </p>

<p>August 4, 2002- Nine people were killed, and more than 40 wounded in a suicided bombing on a commuter bus in northern Israel. The blast occurred at roughly 8:45 local time, as the bus was stopping to pick up passengers at the Meron intersection enroute from Haifa to Safed. Bus number 361 was full of commuters returning home and soldiers returning to their bases after the weekend. The explosion tore the roof off the bus and completely destroyed the rear half of the vehicle, which burst into flame. Witnesses said that nearly everyone on the bus was either killed or wounded. Diners and workers from the nearby restaurant ran out to evacuate the wounded and render first aide.</p>

<p>July 31, 2002- At least nine people were killed and seventy wounded in a bombing at Hebrew University's Mount Scopus campus. The bomb was concealed in an innocuous-looking handbag placed in the middle of the cafeteria. Some 100 staff and students—many of them from the school's international program—were eating lunch in the cafeteria at the time of the bombing. The blast occurred at roughly 13:40 in a cafeteria at the campus's law faculty. Although there were no classes at the time, the cafeteria was open for students taking final exams. There were also numerous students in the building registering for classes for the coming school year. The building is next door to the Rothberg International School, where about 80 pupils from the U.S. and other Western countries arrived Wednesday to prepare for the fall semester. About 2,500 foreign students attend Hebrew University. The student body also includes many Israeli Arab students. Five of the seven killed were foreign nationals - four of them from the United States and one with both French and American citizenship.</p>

<p>"The Zionists didn't "bomb everyone else." On the contrary, the Arab states surrounding Israel declared war on it minutes after its founded, and (in a typical Arab failure) they all lost to a rag-tag IDF made up of inexperienced immigrants."</p>

<p>I'm talking about bombing Palestinians during the Intifada. Honestly, I find it funny that the other arab nations did so horribly and in cases like this i truly respect the Israeli's more than the Arabs. Trust me, my parents lived in Saudi Arabia for years, they did not like it at all, and even apart from that I do not find many reasons to either.</p>

<p>"True. But the Israeli army tries to use smart bombs and commandos to minimize civilian casualties"</p>

<p>Thank you for agreeing with a true point, but regardless of smart bombs, bombs are pretty explosive, and if you bomb one house in a crowded street innocent bystanders will get killed. Commandos also detain many innocent young palestinian men, most of whom have nothign to do with hamas or similar groups, and many of these men claim they had been tortured to admit they do and have the scars to prove it.</p>

<p>"Guess what? Israel has schools, orphanages, and hospitals too. So according to your viewpoint Israel cannot do any wrong..."</p>

<p>What are you talking about??? Im talking about Hamas being elected into government. Please make good points. Im gonna hafta give it to jpps1 for giving good arguments, but quite frankly yours are horrible. Hamas was elected because they helped the community more than Fatah. THAT WAS MY POINT IN THAT PARAGRAPH.</p>

<p>"Of course I would fight back-against the military. Remember the resistance in WWII? They blew up trains full of Nazi soldiers, sabotaged military equipment, ambushed military convoys, but did they ever go into Berlin and blow up restaraunts full of innocent Germans? No. The Palestinians can do the same thing." </p>

<p>They had no ability to go deep into German territory to bomb berlin. have you ever looked at a map of axis power??? And even if they did, most Germans then were guilty. The resistance troops can kill kids and say "Yeah we did not kill civilians, we killed Hitler Youth Members" LOL its hard for the palestinians to do the same thing. Have you ever played paintball, if not give it a shot. If you have a hopper full of paintballs, and on the opposing team, one guy has a fully automatic hopper with additiional ammo, and another guy has no gun, who are you gonna go against?? the guy with no gun. Its unfair, but its war.</p>

<p>"No. I expect them to fight against the terrorist group that is holed up in the hospital next door making bombs."</p>

<p>????????? I said if they are about to be bombed. Why would they go and fight against people who are fighting for thier cause?? Even more, why would they fight against them while being bombed???????</p>

<p>"Israeli jets don't target civilians. Can you find any instance in the last 5 years of an Israeli aircraft specifically targeting civilians? I can find a few hundred instances over the past 5 years of Palestinian terrorists specifically targeting Israeli civilians..."</p>

<p>First off, since Israel is a soverign state recognized by most countries, it will never say openly it targets civilians, Palestinians will. Secondly, bombs target a wide range. Drop one in a town and a whole block with all its people will die. And there will proabbly be children on that block.
Read up on Camp Shatila, the Israeli's may not have committed the massacre, but they sure backed the guys who did.</p>

Of course not...they are Hispanic, not Palestinian.


<p>July 16, 2002- Palestinian gunmen opened fire on an Israeli passenger bus in Samaria, after first detonating a roadside charge to disable the bus. Eight people were killed and 17 wounded, including a nine month-old baby, her grandmother and her father. The attack occurred at roughly 15:00, as the bus climbed a winding road leading to the hilltop settlement of Emmanuel. Witnesses said that a tremendous explosion went off some 200 meters in front of the bus. As passengers attempted to leave the bus, three or four armed men opened fire with automatic weapons from the roadside. An Emmanuel resident said that among the dead were three members of the same family -- a woman, her son-in-law, and a baby girl. Eight to ten of the wounded, including a baby, a pregnant woman, and several children, were admitted in serious condition to local hospitals. Most of the casualties were were apparently hit by gunfire, rather than by shrapnel from the explosion. The attackers reportedly fled on foot toward the Palestinian autonomous city of Nablus. Witnesses said that the gunmen were disguised as Israeli soldiers. Israeli security forces closed the road leading to the scene of the attack and launched a manhunt for the gunmen. Both the military wing of Fatah, the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, and the military wing of Hamas, claimed responsibility for the attack. The Qatar-based Al Jazeera television station reported that the attack was carried out by the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade in cooperation with Hamas. The ambush was similar to an attack last December in the same area, in which 10 people were killed. Since then, buses on the Immanuel route have been required to be armored against roadside bombs. </p>

<p>June 18, 2002- A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus packed with schoolchildren and office workers near the busy Patt Intersection in southern Jerusalem, killing 19 people and wounding 52. </p>

<p>May 7, 2002- A suicide bomber detonated a powerful bomb in a crowded billiards hall in Israel, killing fifteen and wounding more than 50. The attack took place at the "Sheffield Club" pool hall, on the third floor of a building in Rishon LeTzion, South of Tel-Aviv. The building, located in a suburban industrial zone filled with shops, was about a block distant from one of the country's largest shopping malls. Police said the attack was carried out by a lone terrorist who carried a suitcase full of explosives, spiked with shrapnel and nails to cause maximum injury. Witnesses said the bomber took a few steps into the crowded room shortly before 23:00 and detonated. "There was no time to flee; no time to do anything," a survivor told Israel Radio. The explosion blew out the entire front of the pool hall and caused part of the ceiling to collapse. "It looks like a battlefield," said a television reporter, adding that the ground outside was littered with body parts of people who had been flung out of the building. According to hospital officials, some 60 people had been evacuated to hospital, 16 of them in very serious condition. "Most of those injured were hurt as a result of the explosion, not from the collapse of the building," said Avi Zohar, general director of Magen David Adom (Israel's equivalent to the Red Cross). Rescue workers said some of the dead were trapped under the collapsed roof. Firemen used two cranes to clear away the debris to get to those buried underneath. </p>

<p>March 31, 2002- A Palestinian bomber targeted a restaurant in Haifa Sunday morning, killing fifteen people and injuring more than 35. The bomber walked into the "Matza" Middle Eastern food restaurant in Haifa's Neve Sha'anan neighborhood, near the city's largest shopping mall at roughly 14:45. He detonated a "significant quantity" of explosives, packed with nails and shrapnel among the diners.</p>

<p>March 27, 2002- Twenty-nine Israelis were killed and around 150 were wounded when a suicide bomber detonated an explosive device in the dining room of the Park Hotel in Netanya. The bomber was identified as a member of the Hamas, Iz a Din al-Kassam Brigades, from the West Bank city of Tulkarem, which is just 10 kilometers (six miles) East of Netanya. He was on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested to be arrested. </p>

<p>March 9, 2002- A Palestinian suicide bomber walked into Jerusalem's Moment cafe in the city's Rehavia neighborhood last night at 10:30 and blew himself up, killing at least 11 people and wounding over 50, 10 seriously. The bomber walked into the cafe, located at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets about 100 meters from the Prime Minister's residence, and detonated a powerful explosive charge that completely gutted the restaurant. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was not home at the time of the explosion. The cafe was crowded with dozens of people at the time of the attack. </p>

<p>December 2, 2001- Fifteen Israelis were killed and more than 60 wounded in a suicide bombing of a bus in Haifa. The explosion took place in Haifa's Halissa neighborhood, a quite district renowned for the peaceful coexistence between its Arabs and Jewish residents. The blast occurred as the bus crossed HaGibborim bridge, completely destroying the bus, which continued downhill out of control, eventually crashing into several large vans. Another bus immediately behind the targeted vehicle was badly damaged as well. The driver of the No. 16 bus said that the suicide bomber paid for his ticket with a five shekel coin and moved to the back of the bus. When the driver called the man back to receive his change, the bomber detonated the bomb strapped to his waist. The driver was moderately injured. One Philappina was killed in the blast, and four other Philippino citizens injured. Two of them, Mario Libao and Lily Bassi, were serious condition at a Haifa hospital. Two others, siblings Raul and Maricar Vibas, were recovering. </p>

<p>December 1, 2001- Eleven Israeli young people were killed and more than a hundred injured when two suicide bombers detonated their explosives at different places along Jerusalem's pedestrian mall at about 11:30 Saturday night. The mall was crowded with mostly young people, who had come out after sundown at the end of the Jewish Sabbath to sit at the outdoor cafe's and socialize. Ten people -- all between the ages of 14 and 20 -- were killed in the blasts, not counting the bombers, and at least 19 critically injured. Twenty-eight others sustained moderate injuries and the rest were lightly injured. Some twenty minutes later, as rescue and emergency forces worked to evacuate the wounded, a car bomb exploded about 40 meters away, on nearby on Rav Kook Street. No one was injured in the car bomb, which was apparently aimed at the rescuers and the crowds on the periphery of the blast scene.</p>

<p>August 9, 2001- A suicide bombing at a pizza restaurant in the center of Jerusalem killed 15 people--mostly young families and tourists--and wounded more than 90. Six children were among the dead. At roughly 14:00, a blast devastated a crowded Sbarro Pizzeria at the corner of King George and Jaffa streets. More than 90 people were wounded--two critically and ten seriously. The pizzeria, located at one of the busiest street corners in downtown Jerusalem, is a favorite for families and school children on summer vacation, and a number of infants are amongst the dead and wounded. Five of the dead were members of the same family, including the parents and three children, aged 14, 4 and 2. Two other daughters, 8 and 7, were wounded, one severely. Unexploded fragments of the bomb were found by police sappers and detonated in a controlled explosion. Security forces are currently searching for additional devices. Both Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Israeli security sources later said that the bombing was the work of Hamas. </p>

<p>June 1, 2001- A Palestinian suicide bomber detonated an explosive belt amid a crowd of youngsters outside a beachfront nightclub on Friday night, killing at least 20 and injuring more than 120. The blast occurred shortly after 11:00 pm, when Tel-Aviv's Promenade was full of young people, who gather on weekends to dance, drink and socialize. Hundreds of young Israelis, including many Israeli Arabs, flock to the area's beachfront nightclubs and discotheques every Friday night. The Dolphinarium, where the blast occurred, is also popular with the children of new immigrants from the former Soviet Union.</p>

<p>All of these attacks were carried out by Hamas against Israeli civilians, and according to you none of them are terrorism. </p>


<p>I listed only the most serious attacks that took place between 2001 and today.</p>

<p>All I can say is that if American Indians decided to start detonating themselves in crowded urban areas, I'm sure the opinion of anti-Zionists would change. Natives even have a greater claim to North American land than Palestinians do to Israel.</p>

<p>Cuse--- stop trying to evade the facts here. Your facts are bogus. That may be the case for one situation but you are only analyzing one situation. Look at the big picture. Read and understand. </p>

<p>Here Let Me Refresh Your memory of what the big guys in power had said...</p>

<p>Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 "We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes, "The old will die and the young will forget."</p>

<p>Also Ben Gurion stated " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."</p>

<p>"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.</p>

<p>"The only solution is Eretz Israel, or at least Western Eretz Israel (=all the land west of Jordan River), without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.</p>

<p>"Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.</p>

<p>"In Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country"Lord Balfour in private memorandum to Lord Curzon, 11 August 1919.</p>

<p>"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.</p>

<p>"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.</p>

<p>"There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here (Palestine) to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe should be left." Jospeh Weitz, Davar, 29 September 1947 from "My Diary and Letters to the Children", Massada, 1965, III, p. 293.</p>

<h2>"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.</h2>

<p>Lastly, I think -- and also at the same time, ask the Israeli about what is the meaning of the two blue lines in their flag. What is the meaning of land of Israel in their concept?</p>

<p>BLITZER: The two blue lines on the Israeli flag that are on top of the Star of David, is that what you're talking about? </p>

<p>AL-ZAHAR: They are indicating -- they are saying that frankly -- it is indicating the River Nile and Euphrates (inaudible). On one coin, the gold shekel, there was -- it was a map, including Palestine, Sinai, Syria, Jordan and part of Saudi Arabia. So they are not denying that. Ask them about this question...</p>


<p>BLITZER: Well, let's just be clear about this. What you're saying is that Israel wants to establish a state between the Nile and the Euphrates, is that what you're saying?</p>

<p>AL-ZAHAR: I'm sorry, I'm not understanding your question.</p>

<p>BLITZER: Are you saying that Israel hopes to establish a state between the Nile River in Egypt and the Euphrates River in Iraq?</p>

<p>AL-ZAHAR: Yes. It is written in their Bibles. They are even -- it is written in the Knesset. That is the meaning of the David Star that was said (ph) as the land of Israel. This is the historical land of Israel.</p>

<p>Also Ben Gurion stated " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."</p>



First off, since Israel is a soverign state recognized by most countries, it will never say openly it targets civilians[/qoute]</p>

<p>That's right, because it doesn't openly target civilians. I have given you a list of Hamas targeting civilians since 2001; now I would like to see your list of Israeli's targeting civilians, not Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but civilians, in the same time period.</p>

<p>I'll be waiting for your list.</p>


<p>My list of attacks against civilians is perfectly relevant as guru claimed that Hamas was not a terrorist group. I was merely proving him/her wrong, dozens of times. </p>

<p>Israel has had its radicals in the past, I will admit that. But I am focusing on the present and the issues currently at hand. Actions speak louder than words, hence my list.</p>


<p>Think for a minute. Just one is all I ask and stop being so naive. You could go and search all these little articles, which are sad and terrible, i agree. But you will never find one on Israel harming palestinians. Why you may ask? I will tell you why. Because most major newspapers have audiences, and newspapers are a business. Most Americans, regardless of what they know, feel greater sympathy wiht Israeli's, perhaps the white factor, i dunno. So why would a newspaper print an article on one of Israel's war crime? People like you would write to the editor and claim he is fascist and a nazi and an anti-semite/zionist. Less people will read the newspaper. The newspapers profits will drop. The writers and journalists won't have that big salaries. So the right thing to do to put food on the table is to give the audience what they want to hear. News is not news anymore, it is biased for the sake of money. If you find a reason to refute this u r the dimmest bulb on the wall.</p>

<p>I guarantee you that if you read a middle eastern newspaper you will find bad things that Israel did to Palestine. If i quote a middleeaster newspaper, you will claim that my sources are unbiased and all arabs and Muslims are terrorists and it would be best if we rid the world of them.(Hmm, "Heil Hitler Mein Fuhrer" comes to mind) Maybe not that exaggerated but you get my point.</p>

<p>On the Eve of Palestinian Legislative Elections: </p>

<p>Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) Continue to Perpetrate Human Rights Violations throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)</p>

<p>3 Palestinians, including 1 child, killed by IOF. </p>

<p>4 Palestinian civilians, including 2 children, wounded by IOF. </p>

<p>IOF conducted 88 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank. </p>

<p>Houses were raided and 65 Palestinian civilians, including 6 children and 3 females, were arrested by IOF in the West Bank. </p>

<p>9 children detained by IOF in the Gaza Strip, while attempting to infiltrate into Israel. </p>

<p>6 West Bank houses transformed by IOF into military sites. </p>

<p>IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT; IOF have imposed severe restrictions on the movement of Palestinian civilians and election candidates in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; IOF have arrested 14 candidates and campaign activists; IOF have imposed a partial closure on the Gaza Strip; and IOF arrested 2 Palestinian children at checkpoints in the West Bank. </p>

<p>IOF have continued to construct the Annexation Wall in the West Bank. 11 demonstrators injured by IOF in Beilin; 3 houses in Jenin bulldozed by IOF.

<p>Despite announcing that IOF would not initiate military actions in the OPT due to the Palestinian elections, IOF continued to conduct incursions, carry out arrests, and impose movement restrictions throughout the West Bank. In addition, IOF killed one child following their announcement. </p>

<p>Israeli violations of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) during the reporting period (19 – 25 January 2006): </p>

<p>Killing: During the reported period, IOF killed 3 Palestinian civilians in clear incidents of excessive use of force. On 19 January 2006, IOF killed a Palestinian in an area north of Hebron. IOF claimed that the victim was attempting to throw a Molotov cocktail bomb at a patrol in the area. And on 21 January 2006, IOF killed a civilian and injured 2 more as they attempted to infiltrate into Israel in order to look for work. On 23 January 2006, IOF killed a Palestinian child from Al-Mughayer village, east of Ramallah. The child was killed following the IOF announcement of halting their military operations in the OPT. In addition, 4 Palestinian, including 2 children, were injured during the reporting period. </p>

<p>Incursions: IOF conducted 88 military incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank. During these incursions, IOF raided houses and arrested 65 Palestinian civilians, including 6 children and 3 females. IOF also transformed 6 houses into military sites. In addition, IOF detained 9 children attempting to infiltrate into the Israel from the Gaza Strip. </p>

<p>Restrictions on Movement: IOF have continued to impose a comprehensive siege on the OPT, in violation of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of Palestinian civilians. </p>

<p>IOF have continued to impose a tightened siege on the Gaza Strip, transforming it into a big prison. Rafah International Crossing Point on the Egyptian border, the sole outlet for the Gaza Strip to the outside world, has been partially reopened. The crossing point is operated for 8 hours a day only. IOF reopened Beit Hanoun (Erez) crossing for a limited number of workers after closing it for a month. The crossing’s operation was handed to a private company, a step PCHR fears will lead to transforming it into an international border crossing. IOF continued to close al-Mentar (Karni) commercial crossing, east of Gaza City, since 15 January 2006. </p>

<p>IOF have continued to impose a tightened siege on Palestinian communities in the West Bank. They have imposed additional restrictions on the movement of Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. IOF continue to prevent residents of Jenin and Tulkarm from passing through Za’tara checkpoint since 15 August 2005. Over the past 3 weeks, IOF have prevented northern West Bank residents, apart from a few humanitarian cases, from passing through the checkpoint. Restrictions were imposed on the movement of PLC candidates campaign activities throughout the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. In addition, most of them were prevented from commuting between the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and between the West Bank and East Jerusalem. IOF detained 5 PLC candidates and 9 campaign activists. In addition, IOF detained 2 children at checkpoints in the West Bank. </p>

<p>Annexation Wall: IOF have continued to construct the Annexation Wall inside the West Bank territory. During the reported period, IOF continued to raze areas of land to the east of "Shavi Shomron" settlement, northwest of Nablus, to establish a wall around it. IOF demolished 3 houses in Jenin under the pretext that they are close to the Wall. IOF used excessive force to disperse a peaceful demonstration by Palestinian civilians, international solidarity activists, and Israeli peace activists in Bal’ein. 11 demonstrators were injured, and a Palestinian and an Israeli were detained. IOF continued to impose restrictions on movement on both sides of the Wall, which led to preventing PLC candidates from campaigning in communities beyond the Wall.</p>


<p>I am not trying to claim that Israel is completely innocent. If Olmert or whoever is in charge of Israel's military gave an order stating that he wanted 20 Palestinian civilians executed, I would want to know about it and I would condemn it. However, that is not the case nor has it been for some time now. Civilians are killed, but they are accidentally killed by Israel, not targeted. </p>

<p>If you think that all of these suicide bombings are "sad and terrible" (which all violence is), then why won't you recognize them as terrorism? That is clearly what they are. </p>

<p>Let me ask you a question about newspapers- What would happen if I took my little list and published it into a newspaper and distributed it throughout Egypt, Syria, or the Palestinian territories?</p>

<p>"That's right, because it doesn't openly target civilians."</p>

<p>read what i wrote again. If it ever said it does, do you think America would support it. And then read what my aquaintence hmh01 wrote. All of those quotes may as well say that they openly target civilians. And my board name is guguru.</p>

<p>"I'll be waiting for your list."
You could wait till pigs get wings and bacon starts flying, but there will never be such a list published.</p>

<p>hmh, thank you for proving my point.</p>

<p>I gave you a list of dozens of suicide bombings carried out by Hamas in which hundreds of innocent civilians were killed.</p>

<p>You gave me a list of a handful of Palestinian children killed (which is deplorable), but listed no circumstances for many of the deaths. Therefore it is not clear who/what was being targeted.</p>

<p>In addition, the allegations about children being arrested are useless, as there is a major difference between arresting a child trying to cross a border and blowing up a schoolbus full of them with the sole purpose of killing as many innocents as possible.</p>