Why does UMich get hassled so much for poor OOS fin aid but UCB/LA, UVA, UNC do not?

<p>Every single day, I see one more person complain about the University of Michigan for giving poor OOS financial aid (NOTE: I am not attempting to personally attack anyone who has complained about OOS financial aid, I know if I was in your situation it would be tough. I am just curious as to why it happens to Michigan more than other public schools and private schools of comparable prestige). When applying to Umich, you should already know that OOS at Michigan is difficult to afford. People complain about paying 15,000-20,000 a year, but isn't that equivalent to most students going OOS to schools not even in the top 50? UMich is one of the top undergraduate institutions after HYPS, a few other schools in the top 10 and alongside Berkeley. I thought maybe it was because Michigan is a public school which is why people expected to be handed a full ride OOS. I rarely ever see someone shocked about paying 40,000 a year to Brown, Cornell, Carnegie Melon, Northwestern, NYU, USC or Georgetown, private schools within a comparable education range to Michigan. Then I decided to roam the UCB, UCLA, UVA and UNC to compare Umich to other public schools as far as OOS financial aid. I found few complaints about their OOS aid, and I doubt it's because these schools give that much more OOS financial aid than UMich (correct me if I'm wrong though). Is it because people that apply to UCB, UVA, UNC and UCLA OOS have more realistic expectations? I find it flattering that so many OOS students want to attend Michigan because it is a great school and I'm glad I have the opportunity to attend such a great institution as well. Does Michigan deserve to be bashed constantly about its OOS financial aid though?</p>

<p>"Does Michigan deserve to be bashed constantly about its OOS financial aid though?"</p>

<p>Yes, yes it does. Why is the school wasting my time and theirs by accepting people like me and expecting them to take out 21,000 in loans per year? I don't see how that benefits them, it only increases their acceptance rate, and in the end, makes them look bad.</p>

<p>If the school doesn't want people *****ing and complaining then it needs to REMOVE the need-blind admissions policy. Why? That way, they don't have to actually reject kids. They can tell them, "we won't be able to cover you at all, so we apologize but can't offer you a proper acceptance."</p>

<p>I spoke to my counselor today, and he told me not to worry because the school can't possibly be serious about my aid package. My only hope is that he's correct and it isn't over.</p>

<p>You know what sucks. I really do like the school, but it's so unfortunate that my dad has such a horrible job and is an idiot. :(</p>

<p>i don't know what people expect from a school that HAS to meet the needs of it's in-state population....</p>

<p>Then shouldn't it make the school need-blind only for instate students? ^^</p>

<p>DRMAN54, it's unfortunate that you are stuck in such a situation and I hope you get the financial aid you are looking for. The OOS financial aid always seems to be a topic of hot debate so I'm just curious as to where some people's expectations and frustrations come from. Also, I'm curious as to why Michigan of all schools seems to get the raw end of the deal as far as criticism more than UCLA, UCB, UVA and UNC (similar public schools).</p>

<p>UVA: Average percent of need met: 100%
UNC: Average percent of need met: 100%</p>

<p>UMich, UCLA, and UCB are all known for their terrible aid. But even then, UMich gives the least grant aid of the three (loans loans loans).</p>

<p>Okay, I've been biting my tongue on this one and have noticed the same trend as ramennoodles -- no doubt it is and will continue to be a rampant source of discussion.
SO Ramennoodles - No, I don't believe Michigan deserves to be bashed for OOS. But I suspect the reason that it IS bashed so frequently is that its reputation and environment is so desirable that sometimes folks forget it is NOT a private with a gagillion dollar endowment and are just so disappointed they don't really think it through. I also think that high-quality students are more disappointed because the talent pool is so competitive it's possible to be a high-achieving student who does NOT receive merit (where they may receive merit elsewhere where they represent the top 10 or 20% of the applicant pool.) </p>

<p>DRMAN - No, having an equitable and socially conscious admission policy does not "make Michigan look bad" nor does it waste YOUR time any more than it wastes THEIR time reading (they pay 3 readers per), discussing your application in committee, and processing your paperwork PLUS two financial aid documents.
Michigan is accurate and within its own integrity to be need-blind. Please consider the rationale here: </p>

<li><p>Michigan is clear that it is <em>not</em> a 100% need met school for OOS. It says so EVERYWHERE in its FINAID site. It should not be "punished" for the fact that it occasionally awards a very generous package to OOS applicants who represent the VERY TOP percentile of its applicant pool, thereby possibly creating an unreasonable expectation that it WILL MEET all OOS need. That is a lottery that many are willing to play (and only a few win...but would it be fair to take that opportunity away???!)</p></li>
<li><p>Different people have different thresholds for debt, irrespective of their family's EFC.
So would you RATHER that Michigan evaluated you and said: No, you're not of sufficient calibre to attend our institution BECAUSE YOU'RE POOR? Or would you rather have Michigan acknowledge your excellence and leave OPEN the following for your OWN determination or POSSIBILITY:
1) What if you won an external award that covered your gap? Would you still want Mi to have said "NO YOU"RE TOO POOR?"
2) What if you planned on doing premed, dentistry, business or engineering and were highly likely to achieve a 6-figure income subsequent to graduation and THEREFORE determined that investing $80,000 - $100,000 in that lucrative future was a sound investment -- SHOULD MICHIGAN TELL YOU YOU CAN'T?
3) What if YOU knew that you stood to inherit $150,000 from your grandmother some day OR she told you that she'd help you pay back loans. GRANDMOTHER REVENUE is NOT reported on FAFSA or CSS. So, would it be appropriate to be rejected by Michigan BECAUSE YOU'RE POOR?</p></li>

<p>Any of these scenarios can be variables in people's lives that at first glance are not evident. It would not be appropriate for a public institution to discriminate admissions based on socioeconomic factors. It is the right of qualified individuals to make their own determinations about what represents a GOOD investment in their future.</p>

<p>In your specific case, I am sorry for your disappointment, as well as all the other posters sharing your experience right now. I am not certain, however, that your counselor is giving you good advice. If the school has sent you the award summary, then indeed it is serious about your aid package. The only way to have it <em>not</em> be over (unless there is some departmental award still available for which you've been told you're under consideration) is to write a letter expressing your disappointment, producing new evidence of extraordinary circumstances, commitment and talent, and seeing if they will reconsider your package.</p>

<p>However, if I recall, U of M is already giving you a $20,000 grant (unless I'm confusing you with another...if so, sorry). In essence, after your $6,000 in loan, it has "equalized" the OOS factor insofar as IF you were to attend an INSTATE university of lesser caliber but far enough away from your home that you'd have to live on campus, you'd likely be on the hook for at least $15,000 (or more!). And $15,000 was your gap, correct? For some candidates, that would be enough of a break -- a gap that can be closed with a really great summer job (try a cruiseline...you won't spend any of the money you make : ), a lucky break on lucrative work study, and careful post-grad payback planning, depending on the profession you seek. </p>

<p>I also note you are from New York. Did you apply to NYU? Have you seen their aid package? I can tell you that from a protracted conversation with NYU's financial aid office, my s. quickly crossed it off his list, despite it being one of his favorites. In his case, U of M was instate and first choice, a fortunate combo. NYU will have to wait for grad school and a gsi grant, or a brave new world where education is as free as the air that we breath : ) (And boy, do I wish it were!)</p>


<p>"people's expectations and frustrations come from"</p>

<p>I guess you can say that I didn't expect to have to take out 21,000 in loans per semester. And if you read teh otehr threads, they are all similar, everyone has to take out 12k or more... you HAVE to admit that is absolutely ridiculous! what do they think, that I'm going to med school? </p>

<p>"UMich gives the least grant aid of the three (loans loans loans). "</p>

<p>Yeah and you know what, it doesn't even bother me that much. I didn't mind leaving the school with 40,000 loans, but they are asking me to leave with over 80,000 in loans. Not even Harvard is worth that.</p>

<p>Clarification on the semester price...The $21k to which you are referring is the TWO semester price, fall and winter. In your other thread you noted that you intended to attend during the summer. Summer does not cost the same as fall and winter, neither is summer study necessarily practical for a student needing to earn and save his or her contribution to his or her education.</p>

<p>And remember, there are people who pay $212,000 to attend Harvard. And sacrifice like the dickens to do so. So I'm not sure you can say even Harvard is not "worth it" when the market will pay almost triple for it. What you can say is that even Harvard would not be worth your projected hardship of indebtedness.</p>

<p>Just to put this in a little perspective, if you presently attend a public high school and have done so for the last four years, the taxpayers in your state have paid a minimum of $30,000 in foundation grants and more likely closer to $60,000 in many districts. By comparison, four years of U of M at $80,000 does not seem disproportionate in terms of value (though obviously it actually costs much more than that...that is just the portion you are being asked to repay). But only you can make the determination of what's a viable option for you (which is different than the notion of what something is "worth), which clearly you have.</p>


<p>ok, so you make good points, except for the #2. they reduce grants if you win awards. I'd have to win 20,000 first before they reduce my loan.</p>

<p>BTW, I don't attend a public HS. I attend a private-catholic HS on a full merit scholarship, maybe I'm just spoiled like that.</p>

<p>The people at harvard that pay that much, can actually PAY that much. And Harvard is a bad example considering they have great aid for everyone.</p>

<p>RE: grants; each situation is different depending upon the type of grant you receive. It may be that loans are reduced depending upon the type of grants you've received. Take a look at this page: </p>

<p>University</a> of Michigan Office of Financial Aid: Financial Aid Awards</p>

<p>I found this information which might be helpful: </p>

<p>**A Note about Scholarships and Other Resources </p>

<p>Students may seek scholarships from private sources and
U-M schools and colleges and may use other resources such as ROTC scholarships and veterans' benefits. According to federal regulations and university policies, these forms of assistance must be considered among the student's financial resources when eligibility for need-based aid is determined. However, they will improve your overall aid package. In general, if you receive outside aid (including scholarships from U-M schools and colleges), it will first be applied against any costs that have not been accounted for in your financial aid package (i.e., the gap, if one exists, between the cost of attendance and your EFC plus the financial aid offered). Next, it will be used to reduce your loan or Work-Study award, thus reducing the funds you must borrow or earn by working. Only if all loan and Work-Study awards have been replaced by scholarships or other resources will the amount of your grant aid be reduced.</p>

<p>There are some important exceptions to this rule. If you own a 529 plan, such as a Michigan Education Trust contract, or if you receive a scholarship that is partially or fully funded by the state, such as the Michigan Competitive Scholarship (MCS), the Michigan Promise Scholarship, the Detroit Compact Scholarship, or the Wade McCree Scholarship, it will be applied against your need-based grant awards before reducing your need-based loan or Work-Study awards. In addition, receiving either a Wade McCree or a Detroit Compact Scholarship will reduce your eligibility for the university-funded Michigan Tradition and Michigan Experience Awards and for the State of Michigan Competitive Scholarship. **</p>

<p>We are OOS and have around a 9k gap; the financial aid package we rec'd from UMich included loans and work study. As a parent, I do not think it improper to ask the student to assume some responsibility for their education; D has rec'd a likely letter from UVA so I will be curious to see how their aid package compares. Frankly, I think UMich is the better school for her interests, but if UVA comes back basically no cost, it may be a no brainer.</p>

<p>It's actually a pretty simple answer. As far as UNC goes, it costs $10,000 less than UMich to begin with. UVA and UC's, as well as UNC all accept far fewer out of state applicants than UMich, so there are simply more people who are impacted by UMich's poor aid to out of state students. Besides, out of state is out of state. Especially in this economy, you shouldn't expect much aid from public universities.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what other public universities policies are, but my understanding is that most (including UofM peers like UVa) will meet nearly 100% of need. In my situation, U of M met roughly 65% of need, and that was AFTER Pell, Work study, and Federal loans which cost them NOTHING. Do other schools do this?</p>

<p>THe other aid packages I've received so far have been nearly 100% of my need, although they may say my EFC is higher than FAFSA figure. I guess I'll have more to compare to next month that may help to better compare.</p>

<p>WHen I see past discussions regarding the quality of the financial aid packages a student receives, it is usually about the amount of loans vs. grants, or a few thousand in higher EFC. With Michigan, it is tens of thousands of difference between need and COA. I'm not sure other Public schools have the same magnitude of difference.</p>

<p>Actually, you're partly right that outside grants affect the package but I think that it only obliterates the Michigan competitive and compacts (I think your grant money is coming from the school itself, not the state...but obviously I am not sure about this) -- I think the way they word it on the site is that they FIRST try to reduce THE GAP, then the loan portion (so you could reduce that $15k, then the $6k part before touching your U of M grant portion, which would have been about $14,500, right?) EXCEPT in cases such as the Michigan competitive grant. (Use this link and scroll down to Note About Scholarships: University</a> of Michigan Office of Financial Aid: Financial Aid Awards)</p>

<p>Re: the people at Harvard...with a zero efc, you are correct they have great aid. My s. would have made out like a bandit as well at any HYPS (but they didn't have his program...) However, if you take a romp over at financial aid thread on CC, you will find a lot of shell-shocked parents and students quite upset by a lack of aid due to high EFCs and Profiles but who (because they live on the coast, high cost of living, unstable earnings, phenomenal recent losses) actually do not feel they can afford it or that the system is fair. Many students there are in the position where their families can't or won't support attendance at an ivy so they have the frustration of insufficient aid as well, as ironic as that sounds.
It's all quite heartbreaking.
I've said before on these boards (and maybe we can start a movement) that education for our top talented teens, and I don't just mean 5% of them, but a healthy top quarter, should be government/taxpayer/business-financed entirely to create truly equal access for the leaders of the next generation. We need to drive this country on innovation. It seems a worthwhile investment.
But wishes of my can't fund your ed.
I hope if you do dig up any private scholarships that the UM link helps.
Good luck,

<p>PS Does whatever benevolent entity that funds your private school scholarship have funds available for post-secondary? Maybe wouldn't hurt to ask...!</p>

<p>SB-- We must have posted the same thing at the same time. Serendipity!

<p>No the scholarship i have is strictly for the institution I attend, however, I think I can actually convince them to pay for my deposit, which I guess owuld help. I'll mention it soon.</p>

<p>I applied for 4 scholarships:
3 of them award exactly $2,500.
The other one awards a minimum of $1000, but does not state a maximum.
The worst part is these people don't tell me I won until the summer, except the one for 1000 which tells me in mid April.</p>

<p>and kaydog is absolutely correct:
"THe other aid packages I've received so far have been nearly 100% of my need,"</p>

<p>Other pubic institutions have met my need 100%, but what someone else said is true about how michigan's prestige gives a huge false impression that they are loaded.</p>

<p>If anyone really cares:</p>


<p>Award Description Category Offered Accepted
* MICHIGAN GRANT Grant 11,128.00 11,128.00
* EST FED ACADEMIC COMP GRANT Grant 750.00 750.00
* FED PELL GRANT -ESTIMATE Grant 5,350.00 0.00
* FED SUPP EDUC OPPORT GRANT Grant 3,000.00 3,000.00
* FEDERAL WORK STUDY Work/Study 3,000.00 3,000.00
* FED PERKINS LOAN Loan 500.00 0.00
* FED UNSUB DIRECT LOAN Loan 2,000.00 0.00
Fall-Winter Totals 29,228.00 17,878.00</p>

<p>This sucks, the only reason I'm not going to decline right this instant is because I'm going to wait for the April scholarship and see if I give a call maybe they will give me more. :rolleyes: :(</p>

<p>I think a big part of it is probably the the UC schools, UVa, and North Carolina all have far smaller OOS student populations (if I am thinking correctly, 10-15% compared to ~35% at Michigan.)</p>

<p>The facts are the school doesn't claim to meet 100% of aid. You know that beforehand. Not everything in life will be handed to you. Grow up and move on.</p>

<p>I agree with ramennoodles. The fact of the matter is that Michigan is a PUBLIC institution.</p>

<p>"If the school doesn't want people *****ing and complaining then it needs to REMOVE the need-blind admissions policy. Why? That way, they don't have to actually reject kids. They can tell them, "we won't be able to cover you at all, so we apologize but can't offer you a proper acceptance.""</p>

<p>^I'm sorry about your situation, but that's just the way things are sometimes. You can't have them remove the need-blind admissions policy. Quite frankly, unless you are loaded with money, I don't believe it's worth OOS students spending a fortune for Michigan. </p>

<p>In particular, this message goes to those OOS applicants who complain about the financial aid at Michigan yet don't take their own in-state schools in consideration. Those in California, shoot for UCLA or UC-B. Those in Virginia have UVA. Those in Maryland have U of Maryland. Those in Illinois have UIUC. Those in Indiana have Purdue. Those in Pennsylvania have Penn State. Those in Wisconsin have U of Wisconsin - Madison. If there isn't a decent public college in your state, then try private schools. </p>

<p>There's plenty of GREAT universities out there! Sure, maybe the academics won't completely match that of Michigan's, but is spending a FORTUNE for Michigan really worth it? Probably not (unless money is CLEARLY not an issue). </p>

<p>IMO, OOS students complaining about aid in Michigan is like non-citizens visiting a foreign country and complaining why they aren't getting free health care provided by the foreign country. If you already know that financial situations are rough for you (especially in these tough economic times) then perhaps you shouldn't even bother applying to Michigan. Heck, you may be better off saving the $40 application fee. Okay, so I'm exaggerating a bit too much here. Still, apply if you wish, but don't expect them to give you an easy full ride to the school when you probably have MANY other choices.</p>

<p>Sorry, new to this process. Just posted a lengthy reply and it was lost in cyber world. Don't see it here. So I'll abbreviate.</p>

<p>UM is generating all this criticism because IMHO it's financial aid/merit award system needs to be more transparent.</p>

<p>I did my homework before putting a list with my son. And yes, he too didn't apply to NYU.</p>

<p>kmcringle wrote: "the talent pool is so competitive that it's possible to be a high-achieving student who does NOT receive merit aid" My son's stats put him in the running for Ivies, highly selective privates. And he's been accepted to UM Honors.UM was on the list because it's got the program he wants to pursue, it's highly rated etc etc And it was on the list because I thought , given that he is in the top of UM stats that he would receive SOME merit aid. </p>

<p>I noted it had a $7 billion endowment (which I'm sure has shrunk) Like many, I didn't think given our EFC that he would receive FEDERAL aid except for unsubsidized Stafford. But given the 44k pricetag (substantially higher than OOS at UNCCH and UVa) we can't cover the COA without SOME merit aid. Yes, he's into our flagship Honors with substantial merit aid and into another highly ranked, (actually more highly ranked than UM on THES World rankings) which will cost slightly more, given awards, than the in state flagship. He's waiting to hear from some Ivies and highly selective, and some two tiers down with good merit. He would consider UM over all, including the Ivies if we could afford it. But with the economic downturn, the necessity for grad school in his field, we can't take out huge loans.</p>

<p>kmcringle's comments about "departmental awards for which you've been told you're under consideration" made me feel---that my son should have been contacting departments etc and he hasn't done this nor did I realize he should have. </p>

<p>We've got reservations to fly out for an accepted students day and we're considering cancelling because we just received notification of Stafford only. Because unless he gets SOME merit, we can't swing it. It seems as if UM wants the full pay OOS high achieving student who will say 44K is better than (fill in the blank) highly selective. My son isn't a status name only type and he may have chosen UM over an Ivey etc if we could swing it.
And I don't want to spend money flying out, have him fall in love with it and then not be able to go. So, I thought I did my homework, but ...apparently not well enough.</p>

<p>I think it varies from individual to individual. I got really good aid from Michigan, and poor aid from some of the ivies, where I thought I would get more. HYP are very good with financial aid, but I think Michigan OOS is up there with the rest of the not very generous privates in terms of financial aid. I ended up paying less than instate tuition after the grants. I know for a fact that even for OOS, Michigan is more generous than NYU and CMU, competing schools for new yorkers.</p>