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Why is it impossible to get "exit option" or employment survey data from UofC?

writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
edited May 2018 in University of Chicago
This comment from over eight years ago is still applicable today.
Heavily emphasize the school's "exit options" in terms of strength on the law and med school front. Right now, Chicago keeps these figures pretty close to the vest. Pretty much all the ivies veritably flaunt this kind of information.

It seems sketchy compared to every peer college providing all the details. "Most kids go to grad school" is not a valid excuse. One, give us the details of those going continuing education. Two, isolate those who don't, like every other college.
edited May 2018
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Replies to: Why is it impossible to get "exit option" or employment survey data from UofC?

  • CU123CU123 3628 replies70 threads Senior Member
    It would be great if you could give examples of the type of info your looking for (specifically from all the Ivies) and then maybe someone could steer you in the right direction.
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  • writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    Okay...

    Medical school... According to AAMC, 183 UofC students applied to medical school last year. I believe that's out of a class of approx. 1,700 students. How many sat for the MCAT? The difference would tell us how many did not receive a committee letter. What medical schools did c/o 2017 matriculate to? How many UofC freshman were pre-med but changed course? Yale answers all of these questions.

    Law school... How many UofC students took the LSAT last year? How many applied to law school? Which law schools did they end up at?

    Employment... how come none of the UCIs provide employment surveys or salary info? Yale, for example, has extremely detailed first year destination reports, summer activity reports, and everything else you can imagine. https://ocs.yale.edu/connect/statistics
    edited May 2018
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  • CU123CU123 3628 replies70 threads Senior Member
    edited May 2018
    Okay.....

    Didn't take me long.......just had to google "UChicago outcomes"

    https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/pdfs/uchicago-class-of-2016-outcomes.pdf

    Highlights:

    Top tier law school admits 2016

    9 Columbia
    8 Harvard
    24 NYU
    6 Stanford
    21 UChicago (84% acceptance rate to top 14)
    4 Yale

    Med school - 82% admit rate

    93% of the Class of 2016 graduated with post-graduation plans in place

    Couldn't find salary data but I imagine its comparable to Yale's data, and I really didn't feel like running any more of this fairly easily obtainable data for you. I mean do you really think that its that different from other elite schools, that somehow UChicago grads make less and UChicago is "hiding it"?


    @writermom2018 you really need to move on.
    edited May 2018
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  • FStratfordFStratford 495 replies11 threads Member
    lol
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  • writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    183 applying with an 82% medical school admit rate means 150 out of a class of roughly 1,700. Did far more than 183 sit for the MCAT? Where do the 150 admits go?

    Okay, 72 out of 1,700 make it to T14s. How many to non-T14 law schools? How many sat for LSAT?
    Couldn't find salary data but I imagine its comparable to Yale's data, and I really didn't feel like running any more of this fairly easily obtainable data for you.

    While this is flaunted by all of their peers, it is not easily obtainable from UofC, hence this thread.
    edited May 2018
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  • CU123CU123 3628 replies70 threads Senior Member
    Why do you and your son think that everyone wants to be a lawyer or a doctor? Seriously this is unhealthy.
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  • writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    Deflections don't answer my questions, they add nothing to the conversation. Thanks.
    edited May 2018
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  • CU123CU123 3628 replies70 threads Senior Member
    I don't understand the point of this whole thread...........is a relative interested in going to UChicago? I guess they want to look at salaries before they apply? We know your son was rejected and your not happy about that but he will go on to do great things I'm sure at whatever university he ends up at.
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  • uocparentuocparent 360 replies12 threads Member
    Why so worried? Pretty sure that after graduation the Chicago kids are not all eating bons bons and watching tv for a living.
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  • prezbuckyprezbucky 4323 replies11 threads Senior Member
    edited May 2018
    If you do get ahold of salary info, remember to take cost of living and personal choice (major/field) into account. Since relatively few major in Engineering and CS (versus peers) at UChicago, and since most of those grads will likely be working in the Midwest as opposed to the Northeast -- where COL and salaries are higher -- I would not be surprised if UChicago grads' starting salaries are lower than they are for HYPSM, Columbia, and Penn. So remember to keep those things in mind to avoid incorrect assumptions.

    Of course, salary potential is a very poor reason to choose a school from among a peer group, since kids at top schools largely do choose their own majors and (hence) their jobs, assuming job markets are amenable. Instead, it's all about the academic quality/teaching and the experience.
    edited May 2018
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  • PoplicolaPoplicola 174 replies5 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    Please find the excerpt from UChicago's UCIHP (pre-med/pre-vet/pre-dental/pre-optometry advising) website below. UCIHP does not screen applicants. Everyone who asks UCIHP for help applying gets a committee letter. Not everyone goes through UCIHP though. Many of my friends just applied on their own, without asking for a committee letter. That's why there's a discrepancy between the number of total applicants from UChicago vs number of applicants UCIHP helps.

    Seems that there's a substantially larger pre-med community at UChicago now. I'd say 220~240 first years are interested in medicine, with 170~190 students applying each year. (Keep in mind though that some students might become interested in medicine later on in their college/post-graduation career.)

    As stated below, UChicago does not track acceptance rate to top 25 medical schools, which are somewhat difficult to define to begin with.

    What should I major in? I’ve heard that I should be a bio major because medical schools like that, but I also have heard that medical schools like diversity so I should major in something a bit more unique. And should I double-major?

    Medical schools want you to major in whatever you enjoy most. Yes, you will have prerequisite courses to take regardless, but you can major in whatever you like. The key is to pick a major you enjoy, you feel excited about, and you are able to perform well in. At UChicago just over half of our pre-medical students major in biology while the rest take on a plethora of other majors. Acceptance rates to medical school do not vary significantly based on major. Choosing to double-major is truly up to you, but should not happen solely because you think it will “look better” to medical schools. Medical schools will want to understand why you elected to pursue two majors, and will take interest in those reasons.

    How many students arrive at the University of Chicago as a pre-med and how many actually apply to medical school?

    Usually about 150 entering first-years indicate that they are interested in medical school. Each year, we support approximately 100-125 students and alumni in their applications to medical school. It is important to remember that a big part of the college experience is exploring new interests—both academically and personally—and learning more about the various career paths that are possible. There will absolutely be students who feel certain that they wish to be a physician, but after being on campus, find that their eyes have been opened to a number of different fields that they wish to explore, and possibly to select as the right path for them. Our goal is to assist in this decision-making process and support our students every step of the way.

    Does the University of Chicago have “weed out” classes designed to reduce the number of pre-meds? How tough is the work-load?

    Our science courses are not intentionally designed to “weed out” students interested in the health professions. Realistically speaking, yes, some students struggle in the sciences and may realize that this level of science coursework is not interesting or is not a good academic fit—and remember, medical school is going to be another notch higher. So there will be students who decide that this isn’t the best career path for them after taking a few science courses. If you are currently a student who is at the top of your class, with very little effort on your part, you will definitely find that you have to work harder here. You are basically surrounded by others just like you—the best and the brightest! So you have to work a little harder to keep up. But the work-load is definitely manageable once you figure out your study strategies, your balance of time studying vs. time spent on activities, extracurriculars, socializing, etc.

    I have heard that UChicago does not have grade inflation. What does that mean for professional school? Do medical schools recognize this difference? Would it be better to go to a less-rigorous school and have a higher GPA?

    You are correct—we do not have grade inflation. When medical schools look at your GPA, they are evaluating the rigor of your undergraduate institution, the intensity of your course-load, and your overall grades. They DO recognize that UChicago is not a school that practices grade inflation, and take that into account—within reason. That is not to say that you can earn a 2.0 at UChicago and expect that to be held in the same regard as a 4.0 at another school. The mean GPA nationally for applicants accepted into MD programs in 2017 was 3.71. The mean GPA of UChicago students accepted into MD programs in 2017 was 3.60. Specific to the sciences, the mean accepted science GPA nationally was a 3.64 and the mean UChicago science GPA was a 3.53. It is clear from those results that the medical schools are valuing the rigor of the UChicago experience when they consider candidates.

    Speaking of numbers, what is the average MCAT score for UChicago students who are accepted to medical school?

    Our students historically perform above the national average on their MCAT exam. The average MCAT score for accepted applicants nationally is 510.4. The UChicago average MCAT score for accepted applicants is a 513.8.

    What is your acceptance rate for medical school?

    Over the past several years our acceptance rate has been between 79-88%. The national average over the same time period has hovered around 40%.

    What are the most common medical schools to which UChicago applicants are accepted?

    This list will certainly vary from year to year, but we usually see a large number of acceptances at: University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine, Northwestern University, New York University, Emory University, University of Michigan, Case Western Reserve University/Cleveland Clinic, Tufts University, University of Southern California, Albert Einstein Medical College, and the University of Illinois.

    What is your acceptance rate at the top 25 medical schools in the United States?

    Our applicants apply to a broad range of medical schools throughout the country. Since all medical schools teach the same information, selections are made based on a myriad of factors including curricular structure, geographic preferences, patient population, opportunity for service, research options, availability of dual-degree opportunities, proximity to family, etc. We encourage our applicants to explore medical schools based on their personal goals rather than on an external ranking system, and therefore do not track this statistic.

    What kind of support is available to me as a pre-health student?

    UCIHP is one of the largest pre-health advising offices in the country when compared to our peer institutions.

    We speak with you at Orientation when you first arrive, and then as often as you would like throughout the remainder of your time in college. We can help you explore and understand your career goals, gain health-related experiences, look for interesting community service opportunities, great RSOs to be involved with, find research positions, and secure internships. When the time comes for you to apply, we also write you a Health and Medicine Committee Letter of support which helps the professional schools understand your overall collegiate experience and what is unique about you as an applicant.

    Should you decide not to apply into a clinical program, we also help you explore the myriad opportunities within health care broadly—from consulting to policy to public health to health care economics.
    edited May 2018
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  • HydeSnarkHydeSnark 931 replies14 threads Member
    Wow, I'm getting deja vu from that thread a few days ago.
    183 applying with an 82% medical school admit rate means 150 out of a class of roughly 1,700. Did far more than 183 sit for the MCAT? Where do the 150 admits go?

    Okay, 72 out of 1,700 make it to T14s. How many to non-T14 law schools? How many sat for LSAT?
    Class of 2016 was under 1450 people, not 1700. It was before the current rapid college increase.
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  • writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    If you do get ahold of salary info, remember to take cost of living and personal choice (major/field) into account. Since relatively few major in Engineering and CS (versus peers) at UChicago, and since most of those grads will likely be working in the Midwest as opposed to the Northeast -- where COL and salaries are higher -- I would not be surprised if UChicago grads' starting salaries are lower than they are for HYPSM, Columbia, and Penn. So remember to keep those things in mind to avoid incorrect assumptions.
    Northwestern, Notre Dame and Michigan disclose detailed exit statistics, and their placement and salaries are not abnormally inferior vis-a-vis coastal T20s.

    Of course, salary potential is a very poor reason to choose a school...
    Agree to disagree. Thanks.
    edited May 2018
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  • PoplicolaPoplicola 174 replies5 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    Regarding law school admissions, I found out the number of applicants from UChicago in 2016: 169.

    https://associatesmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/top-university-students-avoid-law-school-2018.jpg

    If 84% are accepted to T-14 law, that's 142 students out of 169.


    Side note: Just astonished by how far law as a profession has declined since 2008! Applicants to law schools from top undergrad institutions plummeted from 3,705 in 2010 to just 1,809 in 2017. That's a 51.4% decline in less than a decade. Seems like the best and brightest are avoiding law schools altogether.
    edited May 2018
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  • Trixy34Trixy34 1182 replies6 threads Senior Member
    Anyone with 1/2 a brain is avoiding law school. The bottom dropped out of the legal market in 2008, and everyone and their brother decided to go to law school to wait out the recession. The market is over-saturated.

    But I'm sure there are still plenty of very bright people going to law school. Academic achievement alone does not a good lawyer make.
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  • marlowe1marlowe1 797 replies21 threads Member
    edited May 2018
    What I notice in the old posting and now again in @writermom2018 's recycling of it is the word "flaunt" as applied to the peer schools' presentation of this data. If it's true that Chicago doesn't do that, I count it as a plus and as being very characteristic of the Chicago take on education. Sure, it's not terrible to go off to college thinking of your options thereafter, but (a) that's not the thing to be obsessing about at that moment, and (b) you don't need to know the exact stats to know that a Chicago degree will for a multitude of reasons give you a leg up on whatever you want to do (and of course you generally don't know at that age what you want to do) in your life after Chicago. See Andrew Abbott's "Aims of Education" talk on this subject. I might add that any 18-year-old (or parent of an 18-year-old) doing comparative analysis of these stats so as to come up with a cost-benefit algorithm for selecting a school - well, that kid may have many talents but is not a kid I would like to see at the U of C.
    edited May 2018
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  • TiglathpileserTiglathpileser 91 replies3 threads Junior Member
    The starting salary is hardly indicative of future career success, careers are marathons not sprints and where you start is not necessarily where you end up. For example the starting salary is high for engineers, but you become obsolete in 5 years (YMMV), and even if you don't someone across the globe can do your work far more cheaply. And, if you don't like what you do, you won't get far, independent of starting salary.
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  • writermom2018writermom2018 82 replies6 threads Junior Member
    edited May 2018
    @marlowe1 Flaunt was used by a still regular poster on this very UofC forum in the quoted comment. I think that comment I quoted is from 2008, it’s @cue7, here:
    https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/829810-nondorf-is-making-a-mistake.html

    @Tiglathpileser Yale details both first-year (2013) and 4 years out (2017) in the link I posted. How many years would be sufficient to gather how $305K in undergrad measures up to peer colleges? But this appears hypothetical because it’s a challenge to find clean UofC first year, forth year or tenth year (Obama college score card?) employment data.
    edited May 2018
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  • JenniferClintJenniferClint 462 replies40 threads Member
    edited May 2018
    It seems like Chicago's data is easily accessible so the premise of the thread is questionable.

    Having said that, it is very disconcerting that so many students/alums believe outcomes are a poor way of measuring the quality of a university. Most students go to university in order to improve their job prospects. Not everyone has the inclination or the aptitude to win a Nobel prize.
    edited May 2018
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  • ChrchillChrchill 1004 replies25 threads Senior Member
    There has been a sharp reversal in the market. Law school applications are up again and competition for candidates from top law schools is up!
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