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M&T vs. Stanford

abcdeffabcdeff 36 replies15 threads Junior Member
edited April 2011 in University of Pennsylvania
So... I got in Stanford EA, and just received a likely letter from the M&T program.

I plan to major in Chemical Engineering, but would also like to have some business background. As for career plan, since I'm an international, there's not that much opportunity for chemical engineers (and get paid well). So, my goal is to become an investment banker/management consulting possibly working @ Goldman Sachs or Mckinsey.

Now, you will probably scream M&T... but @ Stanford you can pursue a co-term in MS&E. Does graduating with a master's degree look better than a joint degree (M&T)?

Also, another thing that I'm worried is the workload... how does a workload of a typical M&T student compare with that of Stanford doing coterm?

One more: how's the quality of the education at the two places?

Last question: how's the environment? I heard that @ Penn the competition is almost cut-throat (very similar to business world), while at Stanford, it's kinda laid-back?

Suggestions/comments appreciated.

Thanks
edited April 2011
33 replies
Post edited by abcdeff on
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Replies to: M&T vs. Stanford

  • kafkarebornkafkareborn 675 replies77 threads Member
    In the business world, NOTHING looks better than M&T. Period. Go look at the founder of AQR capital (one of the best hedge funds in the world) and see what he has to say about M&T.

    Getting an irrelevant degree will NOT make you more attractive. With M&T, the top guys know you have your quantitive stuff down and your finance knowledge down, that is why they are the number one reecruited guys on Wall Street. I would not turn Wharton down for Stanford, let alone M&T.

    The quality of education in both places is the best. Wharton is the best at finance (which is what you want to do) and Stanford is the best for science (which you just want to dabble in). Go to the place known for its strength, Penn.

    http://www.upenn.edu/fisher/pro-life-alumni/asness%20spotlight.pdf

    You are a very luclky man. Actually, you must be a down right genius.
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  • JHSJHS 18500 replies72 threads Senior Member
    Hard to go wrong with this choice. Either will be fine.

    Stanford is relatively engineering-centric; Penn relatively business-centric.

    Stanford has a sprawling suburban campus that is isolated from the surrounding community and is organized much like a golf course. It's in northern California. Penn is thoroughly integrated into a large northeastern city, and the majority of its student body comes from the "Amtrak Corridor" -- Washington to Boston, with an emphasis on Philadelphia and New York. The combination of these factors produces a huge difference in style, with very little difference in substance. Stanford will feel somewhat more relaxed and non-competitive (although people will be competing all the time). Penn has higher energy, and people may ACT as though they are competing even when they are cooperating.

    At some level, the most important difference may be where, geographically, you plan to operate. Stanford is very Pacific Rim-oriented (although plenty of graduates do time in New York), Penn very New York-oriented.
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  • german_cargerman_car 84 replies5 threads- Junior Member
    If you care about prestige, Stanford hands down !
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  • skaggsskaggs 261 replies6 threads Junior Member
    I would say that a Master's would look better than a joint degree, but both could have their advantages. Have you visited both schools?

    What are your stats?
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  • AwpedAwped 644 replies5 threads Member
    When is a masters not better than an bachelors degree...apples and oranges
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  • An0malyAn0maly 2689 replies103 threads Senior Member
    M&T is much better for what OP wants to do.
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  • EmmersEmmers 133 replies19 threads Junior Member
    in the business world M&T is extremely well taken. I know someone that graduated M&T and began with a significant salary, his firm also paid his way through gradschool. Apparently his path is not uncommon in fact he says most of his M&T buds pulled up his undergraduate class' starting salary... WAY UP.

    So, even though MS&E co-term gives you a masters at the end, I'd just like to say that further education graduating under the M&T program is possible and perhaps may even be free with the right "steps".

    also, correct me if i'm wrong but I think Stanford's MS&E highlights a different aspect of the "engineering and business combination" as in their MS&E program more or less is an emphasis on financial engineering with an expansive breadth covering a basic knowledge of engineering and business. Whereas M&T is a focused concentration in engineering (chemical in your case) and a focused concentration in business (finance) and you as an individual must use your particular strengths and find the happy medium between both. **At least that was my impression.**

    so for your particular situation. I hate to say this because it is the Penn forum... I would recommend you pursue STANFORD's MS&E. Because you have the intention of entering the business world with a knowledge in engineering, I think stanford's program is more geared towards your desires.

    about your major choice... I don't quite understand what you mean by "not much opportunity" do further digging and you'll see that with a degree from a more prestigious university ChemEng work is available and well paying (at least it seems that way in the US). I too am a prospective ChemE (M&T applicant) who has done a lot of research in terms of planning for the future. Frankly salary was pretty much one of my top criteria & chemE exceeds my standards for starting salary. :)

    You must be hecka brilliant to be accepted by Stanford and get a M&T likely.
    Good Luck with your decision!
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  • An0malyAn0maly 2689 replies103 threads Senior Member
    By the way, what are your stats? M&T likely must make you amazing!
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  • HandlebarsHandlebars 359 replies21 threads Member
    I'll repeat what I said in the Stanford thread about abcdeff likely being a ****:
    Yeah, I agree with Handala92. I tried looking for his stats after he said he got a likely letter from M&T. Came across his posts about deciding between Yale and Stanford, which wouldn't be possible this early because of Yale's single choice restrictions. Does M&T even send out likely letters??
    I mean, if you are so amazing to get into all three schools, then great for you. But this seems highly, highly suspicious.
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  • disgradiusdisgradius 436 replies5 threads Member
    Honestly, if you want to do banking go to M&T hands down. Guaranteed 2 good internships (by the school) which is an absolute headache to find as an international student (because of work authorization). Prestige wise, wharton>stanford on wall street. Plus, M&T has extra rep added. Also gives you the quant skills you need and finally INTERNSHIPS ARE THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR BANKING APP.
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  • abcdeffabcdeff 36 replies15 threads Junior Member
    As for my stats, please look at the Stanford thread.

    Did I mention that I'm an international? So, as for my plans, I don't mind working on Wall Streets for a few years... but not for a major part of my life. I would still like to come back to my country, and work @ a branch of Mckinsey or something similar... maybe setting up my own consulting company.

    I have a relative who works for Mckinsey, and she told me that a bachelor's in business is not recommended as you really have no experience doing business, so there's no use. Also, another thing that I'm REALLY worried about is the environment. Is the environment @ Penn especially the M&T program ultra-competitive? I still want to enjoy my four years there, and not being stressed out from having to study all the time.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, I plan on getting an MBA afterwards. But is a wharton degree equivalent to an MBA degree? If so, then that would be awesome!

    Sighs... I really can't decide between the two. Another factor that I forgot to mention is that I'm getting financial aid (not sure how much) @ M&T and $0 from Stanford. But... I hate to say it... Stanford has always been my dream school.
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  • AwpedAwped 644 replies5 threads Member
    I have a relative who works for Mckinsey, and she told me that a bachelor's in business is not recommended as you really have no experience doing business, so there's no use.

    It sounds like your relative does not really understand Wharton's undergraduate curriculum. Accounting, finance, and econ make up the majority of the core and most people take more upper level classes for a finance or accounting concentration. Any one of these is much more useful if you want to work at Mckinsey or in IB than chemical engineering, and none of them depend on whether you have experience "doing business."

    People tend to think that just because it's a business program you learn soft crap like management/communications, but this is definitely not the case.


    Also, if you were smart enough to get into M&T and Stanford, then I doubt you would find Penn any more challenging/competitive than Stanford
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  • abcdeffabcdeff 36 replies15 threads Junior Member
    OK... so now I'm still stuck in the dilemma. I was just looking around the M&T website, browsing through Wharton and Engineering handbooks. I came across in the FAQ section of M&T regarding submatriculation. As an international student, it would be extremely useful to get an MBA after two undergraduate degrees in 5 years. I'm wondering what are the pros and cons of doing this? How hard is it to be accepted into this submatriculation program? Or is it even humanly possible to do so (according to the website, it says that a lot of its students pursue this option... but I'm quite skeptical given the rigorous workload of the M&T program)?

    As I said, I'm planning to do Chemical engineering and Finance (or possibly something econ-related) for my undergraduate, and then go for the MBA.

    Any opinions??
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  • PoemePoeme 1329 replies0 threads Senior Member
    I don't think that you can go wrong with any of the programs at this level. I'm sure both would assure you an outstanding education. With that in mind, maybe you should visit both schools and see which is more appealing to you. You might really love California, or maybe you would prefer to be on the east coast. I heard the weather is great at Stanford.
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  • RudessRudess 576 replies11 threads Member
    At Penn you could also get a master's degree, if you want. So it's not like the ability of getting a master's at Stanford is a pro for choosing Stanford over M&T. Doing both M&T and MBA submatriculation doesn't make a lot of sense. After graduating from M&T, you pretty much have all the business knowledge that you need.
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  • abcdeffabcdeff 36 replies15 threads Junior Member
    ^ But then the MBA submatriculation is only offered to Wharton undergraduates. Doesn't getting an MBA in addition to undergrad degree make you more attractive?

    Also, realistically speaking, how possible is it to finish M&T and do a submatriculation (whether it be MBA or master's in engineering)?
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  • AwpedAwped 644 replies5 threads Member
    No an MBA submatriculation does not make you much more attractive, nor does a coterm in MSE because you will still start off as an analyst rather than an associate so it's pretty much a waste of a year.
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  • abcdeffabcdeff 36 replies15 threads Junior Member
    Really? Please correct me if i'm wrong but I heard that recruiters prefer ppl with a master's degree. Also, I'm not 100% sure yet whether I would like a career in the business/financial world. If this is the case, where would you recommend I go? How much will the M&T program limit my chances of going into other fields compared to going to Stanford?
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  • SusieBraSusieBra 611 replies27 threads Member
    I chose between Penn (the College) and Stanford last year, and I ultimately chose Penn. FIRST OF ALL, submatriculation is relatively easy to do at Penn, and you usually don't have to pay extra, like at Stanford.
    Second of all, don't look at the weather- that's a stupid reason to go to school at one place over another, especially because I've heard that the weather at Stanford can make it difficult to concentrate.
    Ultimately, I've been very happy with my decision to turn down Stanford, Brown, Princeton, Dartmouth (etc.) for Penn. I love it here, and I don't know anyone who doesn't.
    M&T is a great program (from what I've heard) and submatriculation is very possible.

    Good luck with your decision.
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  • RudessRudess 576 replies11 threads Member
    "^ But then the MBA submatriculation is only offered to Wharton undergraduates. Doesn't getting an MBA in addition to undergrad degree make you more attractive?"

    Not necessarily. You are missing the point and not understanding what an MBA is all about. When you graduate from Wharton, you have pretty good business knowledge, probably as solid as an MBA degree, and employers know that. I am making the point that doing M&T followed by MBA immediately will not add much to your education. You will be in a great position to get a job in both scenarios. You seem to only care about getting a job. In that case, you can do an MBA immediately, if you wish. But I wouldn't put significant weight on anything related to the MBA for making a decision.

    "Also, realistically speaking, how possible is it to finish M&T and do a submatriculation (whether it be MBA or master's in engineering)?"

    Master's in engineering is totally possible. I don't have stats on how many Wharton undergrads successfully submatriculate into the MBA, but I see no a priori reason why it's not possible.


    "How much will the M&T program limit my chances of going into other fields compared to going to Stanford? "

    The M&T program will not limit your chances *at all*. On the contrary, the one thing that the M&T program does is expand your choices. You can do pretty much *anything* after graduating from the M&T program.
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