Penn952283 replies78 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,361Senior Member
@skieurope The cynic in me tells me to believe that their official statement genuinely applies to a small # of applicants and is otherwise BS. i think they have made it optional for two reasons. The first is in order to genuinely encourage low-income students to apply. The second is to simply increase the number of applications by letting people who have not been very proactive about the admissions process (and thus don't stand much chance) apply. Leads to higher number of apps, lower admit rate. maybe i am just too cynical.
skieurope37369 replies6486 discussionsSuper ModeratorPosts: 43,855Super Moderator
edited October 2017
@penn95 I'm not disagreeing with your rationale for some colleges. In fact I expounded upon it on the first page of this thread. However when viewed against schools like Harvard, Princeton, Stanford which say that the tests are optional and can show areas of strength yadda yadda, Penn states that not sending will not impact the decision. If they did not explicitly state that, I would have agreed with you entirely.
Having said that, I would imagine that many applicants to Penn are also applying to schools where "recommended" means "required" and have therefore taken Subject Tests. So the cynic in me comes out when a user asks the question on the Penn forum, since I assume that the underlying question is "Should I send my sub-standard scores?"
I'm sort of glad then when I applied to colleges 3 years ago that Subject Tests were required for some of my schools. It was just easier not worrying about what scores to send where - I just sent everything to everyone.
@4junior Dumb question, but where does one find the SAT/ACT target of a school? I see the common data sets with the average and the 50% range, but not sure how to glean "target" percentage from that. Again, probably a dumb question!
Penn952283 replies78 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,361Senior Member
edited October 2017
@skieurope I think they explicitly say that for the same reasons I mentioned above. One is to make it abundantly clear to low-income students that they are not at a disadvantage. the second is to nudge the kids who are not as prepared to take a chance and send in an application. Of course they couldn't officially say "oh for the middle class and up folks subject tests are required while for low-income kids they are truly optional." So they explicitly say that there is no disadvantage to make sure they capture those low income kids, who might be otherwise reluctant to apply, and in the process they also get quite a few naive middle class/upper middle class kids who now think that subject tests are truly optional because the website says so.
Under the admissions section of their websites most schools will have a stats portion about the incoming class of students. This reflects no only those offered admittance, but those attending, so it is an extremely useful gauge of the academic fit of the school to your child. Some list the median score. Most list the 25-75% scores - also know as the Mid-50 - meaning 50% of students attending score within that range. Realistically the 25% range is often hooked applicants: URM, legacy, First Gen, Geography etc. If your stats match the 25% and you don't have something else in your app thats a push the likelihood of admittance is slim.
Note: I suggest using the actual college website to find this info. Sites like Prepscholar have much higher numbers, coincidently they are also trying to sell test prep programs!
Heres a quote from a NY Times article quoted the admissions director at Midd:
"It’s not unusual for the middle 50 percent of our entering classes to have SAT scores on each of the tests from the mid-600s to mid-700s. That is to say that if your scores are in that range, they will probably have a “neutral” effect on your candidacy at the nation’s most selective colleges. If your scores are higher than that, you may be at an advantage in the admissions process at those colleges, but by no means guaranteed of being admitted. If they are lower, you are probably at a disadvantage, but again, not necessarily out of the running."
D took subject tests but didn't do as well as hoped. (She's the kind of kid that regularly scores 100 pts lower on the day she takes the actual test that matters vs taking a practice test in a test center... ugh!). Her scores were just below the 50% SAT median for the school she is ED1 so her CC told her it was best not to submit the scores as they would hinder not help. Meaning it was better to 'not show' than to 'show average'.
I think for large schools with many applicants the process is driven more by numbers than at smaller schools and in those cases subject tests may be warranted. All Ivys want subject tests, most elite publics do too.
Not a single school D applied to "recommended" subject tests (all small LAC). When D took the practice test and scored in the 90%+ range CC told her thats great but its "not going to really matter very much". So while she was bummed when she did not do as well on the real test she was not crushed. She had time to re-take but CC told her not to bother.
I do agree that for upper middle class kids there is an expectation of students knowing about them and taking them. I do think that by not submitting you are implying that you did not do well on them but I doubt that not submitting them to a school where they are "considered" will put your app directly in the no pile. If you have time certainly take them. If you do great on them then yes - submit!
JSa2c2411 replies3 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 14New Member
@skieurope@Penn95 Hey sorry to bother you but I was just checking the prep scholar chart you guys recommended and noticed UPenn was marked as considered. DO you think this is truly accurate or would they fall more in the recommended camp. I took the test but didn't score so hot so I didn't send and am retaking in December but was just curious if there is any chance for me to get in without them as it is "considered"
skieurope37369 replies6486 discussionsSuper ModeratorPosts: 43,855Super Moderator
@JSa2c24 I believe @Penn95 and I have differing opinions on the subject.
First off, Prepscholar is a secondary source - they are making their interpretations on the primary source (which is Penn's}.
Penn says:
SAT Subject Tests are recommended but not required. Applicants who do not take SAT Subject Tests will not be at a disadvantage in the admissions process.
Having said that, since you "took the test but didn't score so hot," there may be other weaknesses in your application. So while not submitting Subject Tests may not hurt per se, the lack of them may bring something else to light that will hurt, IMO. But we're mot AO's, so all you can do is submit the best package you can and then wait. Good luck.
JSa2c2411 replies3 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 14New Member
@skieurope Ok cool thanks. I honestly don't think I have any other flaws in my app test wise as I have a 4.0UW 4.3 weighted and 35 conpsoite single sitting ACT. I just wasn't doing so well at the time I took the tests so I wasn't in the best frame of mind when I took them. I am retaking them in december and should do much bettwr, but as that is after the penn deadline for ED I was just trying to see if I could have a chance for penn without the scores.
Much2learn4607 replies167 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 4,774Senior Member
edited November 2017
Talking to one low income family who has a senior this year thinks their kid is going to Stanford, because "She has pretty much decided that's where she wants to go", but also visited Harvard, Princeton, and Cornell, "Just in case."
GPA uw 3.8.
Test score? Wasn't back yet.
EC's: Cheerleader (poms), special Olympic volunteer.
AP's? "No. The website says it isn't required. We didn't want her to have to work that hard." "She might try one or two during senior year. "
Subject tests: "No. the website says they aren't required either."
This family is avoiding AP and subject tests as a strategy because it is "harder and more work." I tried to convince her but the mother says "I read the website, it isn't required."
I tried to explain that I thought it was a big stretch to get into any of these. She said her school counselor said she, "Has a very good chance."
The family knows nothing about competitive college admissions, and has trusted their GC.
I hope they have a good outcome, but I think the decisions to avoid AP exams and subject tests significantly reduced her odds of achieving goal.
The admission's website ambiguity does a disservice to families like this and has nudged them in the wrong direction.
ucbalumnus76112 replies663 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 76,775Senior Member
Even students from lower income or disadvantaged backgrounds need to be top-end achievers within the context of their backgrounds when it comes to the most selective colleges. So choosing to avoid recommended items that one knows about and finds available is not going to look good, even if the college understands that some other applicants may not have heard about them or found them available.
EliteFire16 replies0 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 16Junior Member
edited December 2017
The third paragraph of post #47 rings quite true to me. @skieurope
As a matter of fact, even with all the superfluous language, I sent all my scores to some of my schools.
I am currently applying to elite schools as a performing artist and have somewhat assumed SAT 2s are required. I have no reason not to take them, so why not. Granted, I do better on AP tests and in academic classes than subject tests but oh well.
I mean if a school wants to reject me because of one or two sub-par one-hour test scores, I cannot stop them.
CU1233263 replies55 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,318Senior Member
I disagree with the OP'S assertion in its entirety.
1. The elite schools are need blind so they DON'T KNOW YOUR INCOME AND THEY DON'T GUESS, so how do they know your income to see if you "should have submitted them"
2. Admissions officers have repeatedly claimed they will not hurt your chances if the tests are optional.
3. Admission officers state these are the least considered out of all standardized tests and are useful for students who have received something other than an A in the subject to show mastery of a subject.
4. All this doesn't apply if they require the tests.
sbjdorlo4878 replies386 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 5,264Senior Member
I actually think the elite schools' admissions offices *do* know who's Pell Grant. I believe that my son got into Penn based on a number of factors including the fact that he was a Pell Grant recipient. He was a decent applicant, but was "below average" for Penn admits.
I've always assumed my theory was correct, but I'm going to confirm that with a colleague (I'm an independent college consultant, and I refer many of my students to this colleague) who worked in financial aid for many years-and who works as a financial aid consultant. I'll share what she says.
As far as my son goes, he submitted two SAT II scores to Penn, 730 Math II and 710 Literature. Decent scores, but not overwhelming, but he applied as a Fine Arts major, so I thought it was fine.
IvyGrad09234 replies5 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 239Junior Member
Check the school website. Columbia U, for example, has evolved recently from requiring both the written section and subject tests, to not requiring either:
They clearly state that you are not required to submit them and "you will not be at a disadvantage if you don't."
The impression is that if you took the subject tests and had extraordinary scores and wanted to send them, you can. As they say, "we will accept your results should you choose to send them."
I would interpret that as being entirely up to the candidate.
At our admissions meeting with the director at Columbia (we two among 100s,) he made it very clear that CU was moving away from total College Board obsequience. We attended the general info session, the Science Day info session, and the URM session--that message was consistent.
That was also my take away from several other college/uni info sessions.
Replies to: SAT subject tests are NOT truly optional for middle/upper middle class applicants at elite colleges!
Having said that, I would imagine that many applicants to Penn are also applying to schools where "recommended" means "required" and have therefore taken Subject Tests. So the cynic in me comes out when a user asks the question on the Penn forum, since I assume that the underlying question is "Should I send my sub-standard scores?"
I'm sort of glad then when I applied to colleges 3 years ago that Subject Tests were required for some of my schools. It was just easier not worrying about what scores to send where - I just sent everything to everyone.
Under the admissions section of their websites most schools will have a stats portion about the incoming class of students. This reflects no only those offered admittance, but those attending, so it is an extremely useful gauge of the academic fit of the school to your child. Some list the median score. Most list the 25-75% scores - also know as the Mid-50 - meaning 50% of students attending score within that range. Realistically the 25% range is often hooked applicants: URM, legacy, First Gen, Geography etc. If your stats match the 25% and you don't have something else in your app thats a push the likelihood of admittance is slim.
Note: I suggest using the actual college website to find this info. Sites like Prepscholar have much higher numbers, coincidently they are also trying to sell test prep programs!
Heres a quote from a NY Times article quoted the admissions director at Midd:
"It’s not unusual for the middle 50 percent of our entering classes to have SAT scores on each of the tests from the mid-600s to mid-700s. That is to say that if your scores are in that range, they will probably have a “neutral” effect on your candidacy at the nation’s most selective colleges. If your scores are higher than that, you may be at an advantage in the admissions process at those colleges, but by no means guaranteed of being admitted. If they are lower, you are probably at a disadvantage, but again, not necessarily out of the running."
D took subject tests but didn't do as well as hoped. (She's the kind of kid that regularly scores 100 pts lower on the day she takes the actual test that matters vs taking a practice test in a test center... ugh!). Her scores were just below the 50% SAT median for the school she is ED1 so her CC told her it was best not to submit the scores as they would hinder not help. Meaning it was better to 'not show' than to 'show average'.
I think for large schools with many applicants the process is driven more by numbers than at smaller schools and in those cases subject tests may be warranted. All Ivys want subject tests, most elite publics do too.
Not a single school D applied to "recommended" subject tests (all small LAC). When D took the practice test and scored in the 90%+ range CC told her thats great but its "not going to really matter very much". So while she was bummed when she did not do as well on the real test she was not crushed. She had time to re-take but CC told her not to bother.
I do agree that for upper middle class kids there is an expectation of students knowing about them and taking them. I do think that by not submitting you are implying that you did not do well on them but I doubt that not submitting them to a school where they are "considered" will put your app directly in the no pile. If you have time certainly take them. If you do great on them then yes - submit!
First off, Prepscholar is a secondary source - they are making their interpretations on the primary source (which is Penn's}.
Penn says: http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/apply/whatpennlooksfor/testing
Having said that, since you "took the test but didn't score so hot," there may be other weaknesses in your application. So while not submitting Subject Tests may not hurt per se, the lack of them may bring something else to light that will hurt, IMO. But we're mot AO's, so all you can do is submit the best package you can and then wait. Good luck.
GPA uw 3.8.
Test score? Wasn't back yet.
EC's: Cheerleader (poms), special Olympic volunteer.
AP's? "No. The website says it isn't required. We didn't want her to have to work that hard." "She might try one or two during senior year. "
Subject tests: "No. the website says they aren't required either."
This family is avoiding AP and subject tests as a strategy because it is "harder and more work." I tried to convince her but the mother says "I read the website, it isn't required."
I tried to explain that I thought it was a big stretch to get into any of these. She said her school counselor said she, "Has a very good chance."
The family knows nothing about competitive college admissions, and has trusted their GC.
I hope they have a good outcome, but I think the decisions to avoid AP exams and subject tests significantly reduced her odds of achieving goal.
The admission's website ambiguity does a disservice to families like this and has nudged them in the wrong direction.
As a matter of fact, even with all the superfluous language, I sent all my scores to some of my schools.
I am currently applying to elite schools as a performing artist and have somewhat assumed SAT 2s are required. I have no reason not to take them, so why not. Granted, I do better on AP tests and in academic classes than subject tests but oh well.
I mean if a school wants to reject me because of one or two sub-par one-hour test scores, I cannot stop them.
1. The elite schools are need blind so they DON'T KNOW YOUR INCOME AND THEY DON'T GUESS, so how do they know your income to see if you "should have submitted them"
2. Admissions officers have repeatedly claimed they will not hurt your chances if the tests are optional.
3. Admission officers state these are the least considered out of all standardized tests and are useful for students who have received something other than an A in the subject to show mastery of a subject.
4. All this doesn't apply if they require the tests.
I've always assumed my theory was correct, but I'm going to confirm that with a colleague (I'm an independent college consultant, and I refer many of my students to this colleague) who worked in financial aid for many years-and who works as a financial aid consultant. I'll share what she says.
As far as my son goes, he submitted two SAT II scores to Penn, 730 Math II and 710 Literature. Decent scores, but not overwhelming, but he applied as a Fine Arts major, so I thought it was fine.
They clearly state that you are not required to submit them and "you will not be at a disadvantage if you don't."
The impression is that if you took the subject tests and had extraordinary scores and wanted to send them, you can. As they say, "we will accept your results should you choose to send them."
I would interpret that as being entirely up to the candidate.
At our admissions meeting with the director at Columbia (we two among 100s,) he made it very clear that CU was moving away from total College Board obsequience. We attended the general info session, the Science Day info session, and the URM session--that message was consistent.
That was also my take away from several other college/uni info sessions.