"I actually think the elite schools' admissions offices *do* know who's Pell Grant"
I read a SCEA recap article from Harvard admissions a couple of years ago and they commented on how thrilled they were with the increase in low income applicants. They mentioned they were basing the stat on the number that had requested fee waivers. (Just one of numerous factors that can imply income.)
I think many elites are trying to attract more low income students and so they probably do know of that student's low income status. When they say they are "need blind" I think that often means they don't hold it against the applicant and in some cases it is a plus.
Yes, @OHMomof2, that's exactly what I meant, and that's what schools mean when they are need-blind: they don't hold it against a kid if he/she is low income, and as you say, top schools are actually looking for diversity-- income, geographical region, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and what have you.
Need-aware schools such as WUSTL *do* consider whether or not a student can afford to attend, and, as far as I know, will often choose full pay deferred applicants over lower income "needy" applicants.
Sorry to have derailed the thread! Back to SAT IIs...
If one lives in a state that requires the ACT to be taken (WI for example) should a student take the SAT and subject tests or is just taking the subject tests without the SAT fine?
Otherwise it seems to be a lot of additional testing that isn’t necessary (taking both the ACT and SAT)
Like many schools, WUSTL is aggressively pursuing qualified Pell eligible students and is making a targeted effort to grow its financial aid assistance endowment. I would encourage you to look at it.
I would love to hear more opinions on the number of scores. My D19 scores were Math II - 800, Chem - 780, and American History - 700. If she is a stem kid is it better to send in just two? I know there are a few schools that want three, but it seems like most either say 2 or don't state the number.
Send in all three. Those are great scores, and being that she's STEM, that history score is a validation that she can be successful in humanities, as well. For students that I work with who are shooting for highly selective schools, I always use MIT's advice, and say that anything with a 7 at the beginning is good enough, and in your D's case, her Math II is perfect, so don't be afraid to send the history.
My own two older sons each submitted 3 scores, and literature for both of them was the relatively weaker scores at 730 and 710; nonetheless, I think those scores were fine, and they both were admitted to highly selective schools (MIT, Penn, Princeton, etc.).
If a school doesn't require the tests, but recommends them, could you potentially send in the scores after submitting the application? My daughter is registered to take Math 2 and Chemistry in August, but I usually like her to have two chances at this kind of test. But I'm not sure she'd have enough time to take it once, see the results, register for a second, if necessary, and get those results before Early Action deadlines. Totally my bad because I wasn't paying attention to the necessity of these tests.
@sbjdorlo The advice I heard from MIT was 750 or higher for Math 2.
But to the other points raised in this thread - the first thing to do is read the requirements for each school. Which may have changed since last year.
what about international applicants that will may have to sit for their national exams not having time to prepare for a descent SAT II score? I have personally contacted all my reach schools (Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Georgetown) and the admissions officers said that it is ok if i apply with one Subject test considering the fact that in my country National Exam prep starts 2 years before the exams.
what about international applicants that will may have to sit for their national exams not having time to prepare for a descent SAT II score?
I go back to my earlier statement that I'm at a loss as to why anyone applying to a college with single digit admissions rates would submit an application that was not as strong as possible, and that includes Subject Tests. Keep in mind that international acceptance rates is about half of the overall rate at some of these schools. Additionally, if taking the corresponding class the same year, the amount of prep for a Subject Test should be minimal for a student keeping up with the work, particularly if the class has a final exam. And it's not like US students don't have competing priorities as well.
I have personally contacted all my reach schools (Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Georgetown) and the admissions officers said that it is ok if i apply with one Subject test
They are spouting the official line, which is that Subject Tests are not required. Feel free to believe that statement.
for an international student from a non-English speaking country, even preparing for a biology SAT II needs a lot of time, learning the terminology and this stuff. I believe that it is better to prep for an above average SAT General score and one Subject test than study for three tests receiving an average score.
I believe that it is better to prep for an above average SAT General score and one Subject test than study for three tests receiving an average score.
When those are the only two option, then you are probably right, but that's a decision you need to make for you. But, IMO, if you want to make that decision, don't blame outside factors; own the decision. There are many students from non-English speaking countries, like me for instance, who managed to submit applications with all the required and "recommended" tests. And I am sure there have been applicants who were admitted with one or no Subject Tests. Will you be one of the success stories? Who knows? Good luck.
@sbjdorlo An MIT person said on CC that anything with a leading 7 and they knew the kid "could do the work." That's not enough for admission, it's vague, just the beginning, doesn't necessarily make one competitive, at all. She may have been referring to the SAT, not S2. And that was before the New SAT. Count on that number being higher now.
Folks. Listen to ski (and a few others.) When you apply with 40k others, when adcoms need to filter hard and fast, when there are thousands just like you, but THEY submitted it all, with strengths, you may very well get set aside. You could be the one with the file note, "sorry we don't have further scores."
No, they don't always insist. But be logical.
And this notion you only need an S2 to make up for a bad grade? Or in some unrelated field? What you need is to be on your game, 110%. Or 150%. Or they'll pick others.
Again, elites. A broad category of top and tippy top that filter purposefully, even brutally. A competition, not a walk in the park.
An email sent to me by a Dartmouth admissions officer who I personally know. I quote “Because we no longer require the submission of SAT IIs, sending just one exam should be just fine. It makes sense that you’d want to focus heavily on your success on the national exams – and that is just fine with us!”
Re. MIT and admissions: sure, I advise the students I work with to shoot for 800s or high 700s on the SAT Math and SAT Math II and science Subject tests. Of course. However, MIT definitely has some flex for diverse students who score 700+, but don't hit the 750+ mark.
As I said, my own son, an MIT graduate, got 800s on his Math II and Physics subject tests (actually got his 800 in 8th grade on the Physics test), but MIT really does look at context for URM students (women, ethnic URMs, first gen, etc.) because diversity greatly matters to MIT. They are very upfront about that. They also look at more than test scores. I've worked with students who've gotten into MIT and students who haven't, and it has never surprised me to see who gets in and who doesn't.
My recent response was to someone who was asking about their non-STEM subject tests and my response was, and still is, send it in. A 700+ on a non-STEM subject test shows depth beyond STEM.
"I've worked with students who've gotten into MIT and students who haven't, and it has never surprised me to see who gets in and who doesn't."'
I've rarely been surprised by MIT, they say they admit the best math, science and engineering students and they do. The MIT grads I've worked with are top notch, no questioning them like, "how did they get into MIT?", which does happen for other colleges.
Replies to: SAT subject tests are NOT truly optional for middle/upper middle class applicants at elite colleges!
I read a SCEA recap article from Harvard admissions a couple of years ago and they commented on how thrilled they were with the increase in low income applicants. They mentioned they were basing the stat on the number that had requested fee waivers. (Just one of numerous factors that can imply income.)
Need-aware schools such as WUSTL *do* consider whether or not a student can afford to attend, and, as far as I know, will often choose full pay deferred applicants over lower income "needy" applicants.
Sorry to have derailed the thread! Back to SAT IIs...
Otherwise it seems to be a lot of additional testing that isn’t necessary (taking both the ACT and SAT)
My own two older sons each submitted 3 scores, and literature for both of them was the relatively weaker scores at 730 and 710; nonetheless, I think those scores were fine, and they both were admitted to highly selective schools (MIT, Penn, Princeton, etc.).
But to the other points raised in this thread - the first thing to do is read the requirements for each school. Which may have changed since last year.
Folks. Listen to ski (and a few others.) When you apply with 40k others, when adcoms need to filter hard and fast, when there are thousands just like you, but THEY submitted it all, with strengths, you may very well get set aside. You could be the one with the file note, "sorry we don't have further scores."
No, they don't always insist. But be logical.
And this notion you only need an S2 to make up for a bad grade? Or in some unrelated field? What you need is to be on your game, 110%. Or 150%. Or they'll pick others.
Again, elites. A broad category of top and tippy top that filter purposefully, even brutally. A competition, not a walk in the park.
As I said, my own son, an MIT graduate, got 800s on his Math II and Physics subject tests (actually got his 800 in 8th grade on the Physics test), but MIT really does look at context for URM students (women, ethnic URMs, first gen, etc.) because diversity greatly matters to MIT. They are very upfront about that. They also look at more than test scores. I've worked with students who've gotten into MIT and students who haven't, and it has never surprised me to see who gets in and who doesn't.
My recent response was to someone who was asking about their non-STEM subject tests and my response was, and still is, send it in. A 700+ on a non-STEM subject test shows depth beyond STEM.
I've rarely been surprised by MIT, they say they admit the best math, science and engineering students and they do. The MIT grads I've worked with are top notch, no questioning them like, "how did they get into MIT?", which does happen for other colleges.