As far as USNWR numbers go, I know the scores typically seem a lot higher than they are in reality. When I was on campus last year, I spoke with a Princeton admissions officer, and he said that anyone on financial, athletic, etc. scholarships are left out of the school averages and such. So all the recruits and people admitted through Questbridge aren't taken into account when they release the average SAT scores or GPAs and such.
Same with Brown, though - I haven't spoken with too many people, but the only people I knew accepted ED were athletes.
ahhh, that accounts for it. either way, USNWR stats are skewed. there is reason for <2100s to apply to ivies. that doesn't mean 50% of the applicant pool should be <2100, but plenty of them do deserve to be applying (because some get in due to athletics, legacy, etc.).
I am not sure what happened over the last 30 years but for many of us getting into an Ivy (or schools like Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech) have become the meansuring stick of our self-worth.
I also speculate that there are a good number of parents who believe that the admissions process is a way of proving their success as parents.
I played tennis with a young adult - he was a talented junior in the past and still plays quite well. I found out that he went to a third-tier state university. He's a URM and perhaps he had an athletic scholarship as he's talented in a few sports. He works as an accountant with coworkers from BC, BU and Harvard. They tease him about where he went to school but they complain about their $100,000 school loans whereas he graduated debt-free. Perhaps it doesn't matter quite so much in where you go for accounting.
It's been frustrating for me, 2350 SAT, 780-800 on 4 SAT II's, NMF, 12 AP's thru senior year, 3.9 uw gpa, most rigorous courses, 2 varsity sports incl national competition in one and rejected by HYPS. The hard part is the majority of the 12or so kids from my school getting into these schools are either legacies or URM or have some special situation ($$$$$), and many of them are lower academic achievers including some that are way lower. The whole deal with take the hardest courses, challenge yourself, do well and you've have all the choices seems kinda hollow. I understand bringing in athletes or students that excel in a particular area, but legacies really haven't acheived anything themselves.
My other question is, I know students frequently stretch their heritage and claim some % of some minority, does that enable the college to count them as that minority?
Since 30-some odd schools around the country have become need-blind (columbia, penn, vanderbilt, and duke to name a few) and have done away with loans (now no-payment required grants) many students who could never pay off loans/never thought of being able to attend a top-tier school are now not only able to afford a top level education, but are also able to walk away unscathed by debt.
I have a strong feeling this has a lot to do with top-level schools getting massively more applicants
shutterflee: in response to your last questions, YES. i could rant on and on about how a girl from my school was "1/8th Mexican" and got accepted to a top Ivy with sub-par stats and terrible ECs. she's middle class, and CLEARLY caucasian. but she had the records to prove that her great-great-grandmother or whatever was Mexican, so she got in.
Here is what a lot of people don't realize.
Lets take Duke. The SAT range of admitted students is 1340 to 1530. (M+R) Thus if you have lets say a score of 1440 you believe that you should have an "average" chance of acceptance. (So if Duke admits 20% of all applicants then you have a 20% chance of admission) Thats why a lot of people apply. But according to the Director of Admissions of Duke here are the other factors that weigh heavily upon a decision:
Race
Legacy
Residency
Significant Financial support
Performing Arts
Athlete
First Gen College
ED
So in reality, if you do not possess any of these attributes you would need to be north of the 75th percentile (1530) to have any reasonable shot of admittance based on your academic credentials.
All of the applicants have great essays, interesting extras, Great GPA and Great SAT.
But quite honestly, thats not what Duke is looking for.
So if you have a 1440 SAT (or 2160 M+R+W) and have great essays, EC's 3.8 GPA (UW)
but lack any of the aforementioned "qualities" your real odds are about 3% to 4%. If enough people understood this I wonder how many applications these "elite" schools would receive.
It's a complete toss up, honestly. No one knows what the AdCom wants because they all want different things at different times. I thought I had absolutely no shot at Princeton. My grades and ec's were spectacular but my SAT score was ranging a 1900 and I had no athletic ability to compensate.
I planned to take the Kaplan course but I came up short on money, despite working over the summer. I still got in. I know it's probably some sort of miracle but I'm terribly thankful. The AdCom's goal is to find applicants who they think will thrive within their school. The criteria they prioritize is not only a mystery to applicants, but subjective to each school and to each person in Admissions.
Ivy Leagues may be highly ranked but they don't guarantee success. Only the individual can do that--and, with the necessary motivation and drive, that individual can do it at Harvard or at a state school like Rutgers. College acceptances shouldn't define people, especially since, when it comes down to it, they really don't even know you.
I think you have helped make my point. Your prior post on another subject stated that you are Chilean/German, First Gen college, and URM.
Had you not had these qualities, I am not sure what the result would have been.
But from reading your profile you posted, you sound like an amazing person and I wish you all the best at Princeton.
It does seem to me (a high school senior this year who applied to Dartmouth and Cornell, rejected at one, guaranteed transfer at Cornell) that many of the top schools do encourage students who have no chance to apply. I applied to 21 schools and almost all of them put forth the obviously untrue "everyone stands a chance" thing--except Vanderbilt. The Vandy admissions officer who gave the information session was very clear: she literally said not to send SAT II scores if they aren't over 700, and that what they look for is A's in the hardest classes--not just that you challenged yourself. She didn't beat around the bush or make it seem like everyone actually has an equal shot. I really appreciated that and I wish that more schools took that approach.
I don't regret my choices to apply to many top schools, as I am pretty happy now, but I do think that ALL schools could save money, stress, and time for themselves and applicants if they made their criteria explicitly clear. Rejection really does hurt!
wow thats crazy about that 1/8th story
for all I know im completely Asian but found out that I am 5% white (English). it would seem pretty weird having a typical asian name and listing myself as white
A colleague of mine was raving about how accomplished his HS junior daughter was, and how high her SAT score was and how she is getting mailngs from top level schools. He was encouraging her to apply for an Ivy. I told him my son's story (class of 2009, rejected/waitlisted at all reach schools such as UMich, Duke, UVa but honors at all schools he was accepted to.)
He was surprised at my son's story given my son's scores and grades- his daughter's scores are lower than my son's. He went to a state school and thought his daughter would do better. Conclusion: I think some of the answer is that people are fooled by marketing campaigns and don't really investigate. Plus they want to live through their kids, as said earlier.
i thought this thread was extremely interesting to read.
read them, but don't weep. just because schools rejected you does not mean ANYTHING. one school may not want you, but another school is BEGGING you to go to theirs.
I am very happy as things turned out. As you have experienced, my child has scholarships and honors acceptances from some very selective colleges. So in the end she is very happy to be going to her favorite school even though she was denied at PD and WL at Penn. She gave the denials about 5 minutes of lament and never broke stride.
My only regret is that they were able to get her to apply in the first place. I feel like I have added to the number of applications they have received and as a result even perpetuated the (dare I say it?) fraud they impose on college seniors each and every year.
I don't think though, thats its parents living through their kids. (I guess for a few it is) I think its approaching the whole process with the idea that you will be judged on your merits and not those factors you do not control.
Lets try this disclaimer on the applications:
****Please be advised that while your essays may be brilliant and you possess the academic credentials and activities that place you squarely in the middle of our accepted applicant pool, your race, athletic ability, artistic ability, legacy status, measure of giving, residency,and your status as first gen to go to college will weigh significantly on our decision. As a result, your academic credentials need to be above the 80th percentile of admitted students if you possess none of the aforementioned traits in order to have a fair chance of gaining admittance*******
Lets see how many "qualified" students apply then?
Replies to: Admission Stats 2010--Read 'Em But Don't Weep
Same with Brown, though - I haven't spoken with too many people, but the only people I knew accepted ED were athletes.
I also speculate that there are a good number of parents who believe that the admissions process is a way of proving their success as parents.
Harvard, Princeton, and Yale (and Stanford) give unbeatable financial aid packages for middle-class families.
And Harvard's app (as well as Dartmouth's) is ridic easy if one doesn't do the optional essay.
One can also do copypasta on essays already written.
My other question is, I know students frequently stretch their heritage and claim some % of some minority, does that enable the college to count them as that minority?
I have a strong feeling this has a lot to do with top-level schools getting massively more applicants
Lets take Duke. The SAT range of admitted students is 1340 to 1530. (M+R) Thus if you have lets say a score of 1440 you believe that you should have an "average" chance of acceptance. (So if Duke admits 20% of all applicants then you have a 20% chance of admission) Thats why a lot of people apply. But according to the Director of Admissions of Duke here are the other factors that weigh heavily upon a decision:
Race
Legacy
Residency
Significant Financial support
Performing Arts
Athlete
First Gen College
ED
So in reality, if you do not possess any of these attributes you would need to be north of the 75th percentile (1530) to have any reasonable shot of admittance based on your academic credentials.
All of the applicants have great essays, interesting extras, Great GPA and Great SAT.
But quite honestly, thats not what Duke is looking for.
So if you have a 1440 SAT (or 2160 M+R+W) and have great essays, EC's 3.8 GPA (UW)
but lack any of the aforementioned "qualities" your real odds are about 3% to 4%. If enough people understood this I wonder how many applications these "elite" schools would receive.
I planned to take the Kaplan course but I came up short on money, despite working over the summer. I still got in. I know it's probably some sort of miracle but I'm terribly thankful. The AdCom's goal is to find applicants who they think will thrive within their school. The criteria they prioritize is not only a mystery to applicants, but subjective to each school and to each person in Admissions.
Ivy Leagues may be highly ranked but they don't guarantee success. Only the individual can do that--and, with the necessary motivation and drive, that individual can do it at Harvard or at a state school like Rutgers. College acceptances shouldn't define people, especially since, when it comes down to it, they really don't even know you.
Had you not had these qualities, I am not sure what the result would have been.
But from reading your profile you posted, you sound like an amazing person and I wish you all the best at Princeton.
I don't regret my choices to apply to many top schools, as I am pretty happy now, but I do think that ALL schools could save money, stress, and time for themselves and applicants if they made their criteria explicitly clear. Rejection really does hurt!
for all I know im completely Asian but found out that I am 5% white (English). it would seem pretty weird having a typical asian name and listing myself as white
He was surprised at my son's story given my son's scores and grades- his daughter's scores are lower than my son's. He went to a state school and thought his daughter would do better. Conclusion: I think some of the answer is that people are fooled by marketing campaigns and don't really investigate. Plus they want to live through their kids, as said earlier.
read them, but don't weep. just because schools rejected you does not mean ANYTHING. one school may not want you, but another school is BEGGING you to go to theirs.
My only regret is that they were able to get her to apply in the first place. I feel like I have added to the number of applications they have received and as a result even perpetuated the (dare I say it?) fraud they impose on college seniors each and every year.
I don't think though, thats its parents living through their kids. (I guess for a few it is) I think its approaching the whole process with the idea that you will be judged on your merits and not those factors you do not control.
Lets try this disclaimer on the applications:
****Please be advised that while your essays may be brilliant and you possess the academic credentials and activities that place you squarely in the middle of our accepted applicant pool, your race, athletic ability, artistic ability, legacy status, measure of giving, residency,and your status as first gen to go to college will weigh significantly on our decision. As a result, your academic credentials need to be above the 80th percentile of admitted students if you possess none of the aforementioned traits in order to have a fair chance of gaining admittance*******
Lets see how many "qualified" students apply then?
it makes the people who get in THAT MUCH happier though