STUDENT GUEST OF THE WEEK: Ethan is a burgeoning tech enthusiast who got accepted into Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, Brown. This week he's answering your questions on how to best craft your application and narrow down your college search/decision process. ASK HIM ANYTHING!
Concerned about how to pay for college amid COVID-19 economic changes? Join us for a webinar on Thu, Apr. 9 at 5pm ET. REGISTER NOW and let us know what questions you have and want answered.
Most of the decisions are in by now. Connect with fellow students and share support for those who didn't get the best news.
Angst for the educated
Roger_Dooley
Founder 6083 replies100309 threads Senior Member
This may not be breaking news, but a degree is no longer a guarantee of financial security. The Economist has an interesting article on the changing employment picture for college grads:
Schumpeter: Angst for the educated | The Economist
At the same time, the article highlights data showing that degreed individuals earn far more than those without college education.
So, should you skip college and become a plumber?
My take is not that earning a degree is a waste of time, but career selection and perhaps college major choice are increasingly important. What do you think?
35 repliesThe supply of university graduates is increasing rapidly. The Chronicle of Higher Education calculates that between 1990 and 2007 the number of students going to university increased by 22% in North America, 74% in Europe, 144% in Latin America and 203% in Asia. In 2007 150m people attended university around the world, including 70m in Asia. Emerging economiesespecially Chinaare pouring resources into building universities that can compete with the elite of America and Europe. They are also producing professional-services firms such as Tata Consulting Services and Infosys that take fresh graduates and turn them into world-class computer programmers and consultants. The best and the brightest of the rich world must increasingly compete with the best and the brightest from poorer countries who are willing to work harder for less money.
Schumpeter: Angst for the educated | The Economist
At the same time, the article highlights data showing that degreed individuals earn far more than those without college education.
So, should you skip college and become a plumber?
My take is not that earning a degree is a waste of time, but career selection and perhaps college major choice are increasingly important. What do you think?
Post edited by Roger_Dooley on
This discussion has been closed.
Replies to: Angst for the educated
Yes. As the job market gets tighter here, with manufacturing & other jobs going overseas, but there are more college graduates (the latter is a good thing, right?), it would behoove kids to have a plan. Not everyone should be a liberal arts major. And even if you think that is your best option, you should have some sort of idea what to do with it.
That is not entirely true (yet) because, unlike capital which is free to flow across the borders, there are still restrictions to international labor mobility, especially immigration laws. To a lesser extent, there are also culture/language barriers that affect the competitiveness of foreign workers.
There are actually 13 or so OECD countries with higher college graduation rates than the US, but they are mostly small-population countries like Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Denmark, Ireland, etc. Among the bigger countries, the UK for example was slightly behind the US at 35 % and a major industrial powerhouse like Germany was way behind at 25 % or so only. In the German case, the low percentage of college graduates reflects an educational system that, from an early age (sometimes as early as 6th grade) intentionally steers low-income and/or under-achieving kids to vocational/technical tracks in school as opposed to the academic track that would lead ultimately to a university education
In the US, the focus is instead on the comprehensive High School model that is increasingly oriented towards college preparation classes. That is not necessarily bad and, in fact, may even be the right thing to do in a post-industrial, information society. The downside of the US model is however that many school kids are left with the impression that college is a natural follow-up of a High School education and that everybody has to go to college, which is not the case.
There is still security in that, by the way.
Maybe not so much... Many PhDs can't find work in their field (which is often caused by the limited number of tenure-track prof positions). JDs also have major issues except for those with degrees from top schools and strong credentials. Of course, a PhD in CompSci is probably still golden.
>>there are still restrictions to international labor mobility
The bigger challenge may be work mobility. Software development, legal research, etc. can be shifted offshore quite readily. That may not always produce ideal results, but some firms have decided the tradeoff is worth it. And a professional in a developing nation is probably quite a bit cheaper there vs. that same person living in the U.S.
What I personally find interesting in the German example is that college seems the least popular in those German states with the strongest economy. Bavaria has an unemployment rate of 3.7% and the second-highest GDP per capita, yet the lowest percentage of students with the academic-track high school credential that's required to enroll at a public university - only 22%. (I have been trying to find the rate of actual college graduates broken down by state, to no avail.)
But I guess it's not surprising that the academic track is so unpopular when it's not necessary to have a career. Students in the vocational track start earning money as an apprentice at age 16; students who go through college don't have a full-time job until they are 25 or so.
I agree entirely with this statement. All college degrees are not the same. We all know far too many students that major in areas where former graduates have had difficulty launching careers even in good times. Bad times simply exacerbate this problem. Who is more likely to be employed upon graduation - an engineer or someone with a fine arts degree?
Of course, that doesn't mean much if anything unless the goal is simply to become employed, earn money, launch a career, etc. If the person truly is only interested in the arts, an engineering career would alienate them every day of their life. So, if the issue is simply one of employment and compensation there clearly is a difference in the specific degree. If the person's objectives are focused primarily if not exclusively on what they hope to do, they should go for the degree that might help them get there. These are different goals. I think graduating students become disgruntled when the degree they selected for other purposes doesn't lead directly to the path of riches. Everyone's expectations should be realistic.
My biggest concern is that many teenagers don't make a purposeful decision to go to college; they go without a goal or a plan, because it's taken for granted that middle class students will go to college these days. I am all for a broad liberal arts education when a student makes a deliberate decision to get one, aware of the benefits and willing to work with the disadvantages (e.g. employability). It's problematic when liberal arts majors become the default for students who haven't given much thought to their interests or career choice, as it's happening right now. Students who have made a career choice might apply to the business or engineering or nursing school. Everyone else applies "undecided" to the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences.
My older son has a considerably better than average aptitude for Mathematics but is by no means a gifted Math student. Nevertheless, to maximize his chances for a good position in the field of Geology he has completed three semesters of Calculus for Math, Physical Science and Engineering majors and is currently taking Differential Equations. He has completed one semester of Calculus based Physics, is taking a second semester now and plans to take a third. He has to work hard at these courses but has taken on the challenge of difficult Math and Math based courses because he knows that companies who employ geologists want people with strong quantitative backgrounds.
My younger son, who struggles with Asperger's syndrome, is truly gifted with an extraordinary aptitude for Mathematics that should serve him well in Physics. He is socially awkward but I think that is true of many physicists and they usually have no difficulties finding employment in industry, government, acadamia and even the financial world as their quantitative skills are usually in high demand.
Most of the Liberal Arts and many of the Biology majors chose those fields because they wanted to avoid taking rigorous courses in Math and Physical Sciences. It appears that a very large number of Americans fear Math, are convinced they can not do Math or are not willing to make the effort that learning something like Multi-variable Calculus requires. They flock to majors that have no or minimal Math requirements. They want a college degree that, above all else, does not require them to study Math and then are distressed when employers, who often prize quantitative skills in prospective employees, are not interested in hiring them. As long as the majority of American college graduates are able to get their diploma without taking a substantial course in Math, these college graduates are going to have difficulty finding stable and financially secure positions.
I agree with most of your post as well. One part did make me laugh just a bit. I am considerably older than your younger son (and probably you). I wanted to major in physics. When I discussed this with both my high school counselor and college career counselor, they both told me that the only job possibilities would likely be teaching physics! Best of luck to both of your sons that have opted to take study paths that clearly lead to something.
Frankly, I am more worried about the future viability of the Geology and Physics Departments at CSUS which attract few new majors but require expensive laboratories and equipment than i am about the Liberal Arts Departments which produce far more revenue due to their much higher student enrollments and relatively low costs to operate.
In fact, single-variable Calculus is fast becoming a required core curriculum subject even for humanities majors who did not take it in High School, and multivariable Calculus is of course a normally required course for all science/engineering and often even economics majors.
Of course not, where would the STEM students who are flunking out go? (That's a JOKE, folks!) Seriously, the demand for liberal arts degrees will remain strong. I just don't see massive shifts to STEM, as good as that would be for the country and the jobs picture.
As Lemaitre1 notes, liberal arts degrees are good business for colleges - high demand, low cost to deliver.
One thing that may help mitigate the angst: degree holders are still in a lot better shape than those without degrees. On CNN today, I saw a stat that said the unemployment rate for those with college degrees was just 4.5%, half the national average.
Regarding the idea that the US is in a post-engineering phase, I have to wonder if this applies more to the type of engineering than engineering in general.