A bit of clarification about the NCAA contact rules and what it means in real life.
Summer Jr nationals last year were held in early August. At USA swimming events coaches are only issued deck passes if they have swimmers competing and college coaches sat in the spectator area with the parents. There were many college coaches present including most of the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Michigan, Texas, and many, many others. Parent are generally under the same the NCAA rules as an athlete as far as contacting coaches. Most contact between coaches and parents was brief. After July 1st before the start of an athletes senior year the contact rules change. As a result a rising senior is free to talk to college coaches after they complete their events (some NCAA rules still apply). At the final day of juniors I observed many college coaches talking to swimmers and their parents.
ahsmuoh1309 replies37 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,346Senior Member
Yes. That was the same as y nationals. We know the rules and understand them. Just interesting how many coaches asked him if he was going to be at juniors this weekend. I guess so they could just watch him. Of course he replied that he wasn't going so it didn't go any further. What's the rule if a coach comes to your club practice - what's the rule then? One coach has contacted my sons coach to come to practice this month. Btw - my son is a junior. Can they have a private conversation at our pool? I know if we go to campus then the coaches can talk to us.
classicalmama2244 replies17 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,261Senior Member
Swimkidsdad and I posted at the same time, so amending that I'm going by my son and what happened with rowing recruiting...If the coach comes to a practice, he cannot talk to your son. I don't think he's really even supposed to come just to see your son--though he can skirt around that by officially going to the practice to see seniors. At this point he can email your son; talk to your son at the college; and (a bit of skirting again) set up a time by email for your son to call him to chat on the phone.
classicalmama2244 replies17 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,261Senior Member
You're correct that mens rowing is not an NCAA sport, but Ivies still follow NCAA rules--probably because they recruit women under them.
When my kid was at U.S. Rowing camp and when coaches came to observe his practices at school, they did not talk to him sophomore/junior year, even if he was having a conversation with one of his coaches and the college coach was right there. The coaches would nod or quickly say hello but that was it. Once, my kid asked a college coach a direct question and the coach just looked the other way. In fact, even this summer, the coaches who had been actively recruiting him didn't talk to him or call him until after Club Nationals in mid-July. So I guess I'm assuming that if coaches who voluntarily follow the NCAA rules aren't talking, that the coaches who have to follow the rules wouldn't either.
SamuraiLandshark3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,450Senior Member
Exactly right, classicalmama.
I remember being a newbie mom with a kid in 9th grade and we were at Junior Olympics and one of my friend's kids played for a certain athletic coach. I wanted to say hi and acknowledge how much this family thought of him and he gave me the cold shoulder. I hadn't said who my kud was either, but he was trying to avoid any impropriety. Didn't understand that, then.
The rules are very different depending upon when and where you see a coach, whether a dead period or not and what recruiting year it is.
Some also wink about breaking rules if they think they will not be caught.
Given the fact that Washington has dominated the men's rowing national championships for the past decade one would assume that they would have the largest national recruitment presence.
"but Ivies still follow NCAA rules--probably because they recruit women under them. "
"So I guess I'm assuming that if coaches who voluntarily follow the NCAA rules aren't talking, that the coaches who have to follow the rules wouldn't either."
Both statements are incorrect. Ivies follow NCAA recruitment rules because Ivy League regulations require them to follow NCAA rules. The Ivies also have additional regulations regarding the recruitment of athletes. This may explain the reluctance on the part of Ivy League coaches to speak with recruits. I will tell you that I know of incidences that Ivy League coaches have engaged in "unavoidable incidental contact". Note that incidental contact is voluntary and in my experience it is initiated by the coach about as often as it is initiated by the athlete.
SamuraiLandshark3428 replies22 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,450Senior Member
After July 1 of athete's just concluded junior year, at the conclusion of tournament play, coaches waited around like hawks to talk to athletes.
Beforre that date, coaches talking to recruits in person away from college campus has massive rules that have to be followed for Division 1. Ivy or non-Ivy, if that team participated in Division 1 play, those are the rules.
Some coaches did not follow the rules, but they are in non-compliance when they break them.
classicalmama2244 replies17 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,261Senior Member
Both statements are incorrect. Ivies follow NCAA recruitment rules because Ivy League regulations require them to follow NCAA rules. The Ivies also have additional regulations regarding the recruitment of athletes.
I don't disagree with that. My statements were not about Ivy League sports in general, just about mens crew. Those are the coaches that I am referring to who are "voluntarily" following the NCAA rules. You're right that that is something of a misstatement; they are following the rules because that's what their colleges require, not because they are volunteering. But they repeatedly told my son that they were following NCAA rules, not some other set of rules specific to the Ivy League.
My kid was heavily recruited his junior year and saw college coaches frequently in the summer, at races, and at school practices, and the only "unavoidable, incidental contact" he or any of his teammates who were not seniors experienced was a quick hello, nod or (I think once) handshake while walking by. This was not just Ivy but other D1 coaches recruiting his teammates.
It wouldn't surprise me to hear that other coaches defined incidental contact differently, but I agree with landshark that they are not complying with NCAA standards if they engage in any kind of conversation beyond a basic greeting.
"..is not made for the purpose of recruitment of the prospective student-athlete, and involves only normal civility."
In my world normal civility can involve conversations, and other people may have other opinion. What is important is how the NCAA interprets "normal civility". This term is somewhat ambiguous and it appears that the NCAA has given coaches some leeway in this matter. Conversations involving recruiting are off limits. Lankshark is correct that many other rules apply which may prevent unavoidable incidental contact. The decision about initiating incidental contacts will be made by the coach and an athlete should understand that refusing to participate in an incidental contact does not mean that the coach is not interested in recruiting the athlete.
classicalmama2244 replies17 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,261Senior Member
I think the takeaway here is that parents and athletes should not expect, at a meet, that they will have a chance to discuss anything related to the recruitment of the athlete until the summer before senior year (the original question raised by ahsmuoh, at least as I understood it).
fogfog3868 replies188 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 4,056Senior Member
Havent' been around in a bit...
For K1, OVs did NOT include finances (HYP)
For K2, OVs to date have NOT included finances (not HYP)
WE as a family "vetted" the schools to go on the list (only from finance route) as K2 choose those on the list based on feel/after 1st visit.
With both kids we have not let them apply somewhere they couldn't attend because of finances. Either with FAFSA/Profile/calc estimates, work study, merit etc...we came to decide whether the schools stayed on or off.
We wanted the OVs for K1 and now K2 be about the college's culture, the coach/team fit and to consider IF injury/burnout sidelined them, would they be happy etc.
Our kids have traveled enough, spent summers away etc and so it was important that they feel it out and then come back/process etc.
K1 verballed at the OV (HYP) and our counsel ahead of time had been - it's musical chairs, when you find the right fit--SIT.
K2 is in the process and several OVs are in spring (already admitted- and we have the merit aid #s). So again, it will be all about fit.
My initial post as the OP is that the presence of pushy parents who forget its about the athletes, impact ALL of the athletes...and its not always a good thing...for the other students nor yours.
College coaches understand that face to face evaluations of themselves by recruits and parents is an important part of the recruitment process. This explains why many coaches will include a meeting with parents during an official visit and why coaches will participate in unavoidable incidental contact with a recruit. It has been my experience that the top ranked coaches will encourage interaction with parents of top ranked recruits, which may include official visits.
Replies to: OVs and Parents
Summer Jr nationals last year were held in early August. At USA swimming events coaches are only issued deck passes if they have swimmers competing and college coaches sat in the spectator area with the parents. There were many college coaches present including most of the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Michigan, Texas, and many, many others. Parent are generally under the same the NCAA rules as an athlete as far as contacting coaches. Most contact between coaches and parents was brief. After July 1st before the start of an athletes senior year the contact rules change. As a result a rising senior is free to talk to college coaches after they complete their events (some NCAA rules still apply). At the final day of juniors I observed many college coaches talking to swimmers and their parents.
The meeting would probably fall under unavoidable incidental contact rules, although I am not certain of this.
When my kid was at U.S. Rowing camp and when coaches came to observe his practices at school, they did not talk to him sophomore/junior year, even if he was having a conversation with one of his coaches and the college coach was right there. The coaches would nod or quickly say hello but that was it. Once, my kid asked a college coach a direct question and the coach just looked the other way. In fact, even this summer, the coaches who had been actively recruiting him didn't talk to him or call him until after Club Nationals in mid-July. So I guess I'm assuming that if coaches who voluntarily follow the NCAA rules aren't talking, that the coaches who have to follow the rules wouldn't either.
I remember being a newbie mom with a kid in 9th grade and we were at Junior Olympics and one of my friend's kids played for a certain athletic coach. I wanted to say hi and acknowledge how much this family thought of him and he gave me the cold shoulder. I hadn't said who my kud was either, but he was trying to avoid any impropriety. Didn't understand that, then.
The rules are very different depending upon when and where you see a coach, whether a dead period or not and what recruiting year it is.
Some also wink about breaking rules if they think they will not be caught.
My statement in post #51 still stand
Given the fact that Washington has dominated the men's rowing national championships for the past decade one would assume that they would have the largest national recruitment presence.
"but Ivies still follow NCAA rules--probably because they recruit women under them. "
"So I guess I'm assuming that if coaches who voluntarily follow the NCAA rules aren't talking, that the coaches who have to follow the rules wouldn't either."
Both statements are incorrect. Ivies follow NCAA recruitment rules because Ivy League regulations require them to follow NCAA rules. The Ivies also have additional regulations regarding the recruitment of athletes. This may explain the reluctance on the part of Ivy League coaches to speak with recruits. I will tell you that I know of incidences that Ivy League coaches have engaged in "unavoidable incidental contact". Note that incidental contact is voluntary and in my experience it is initiated by the coach about as often as it is initiated by the athlete.
Beforre that date, coaches talking to recruits in person away from college campus has massive rules that have to be followed for Division 1. Ivy or non-Ivy, if that team participated in Division 1 play, those are the rules.
Some coaches did not follow the rules, but they are in non-compliance when they break them.
I don't disagree with that. My statements were not about Ivy League sports in general, just about mens crew. Those are the coaches that I am referring to who are "voluntarily" following the NCAA rules. You're right that that is something of a misstatement; they are following the rules because that's what their colleges require, not because they are volunteering. But they repeatedly told my son that they were following NCAA rules, not some other set of rules specific to the Ivy League.
My kid was heavily recruited his junior year and saw college coaches frequently in the summer, at races, and at school practices, and the only "unavoidable, incidental contact" he or any of his teammates who were not seniors experienced was a quick hello, nod or (I think once) handshake while walking by. This was not just Ivy but other D1 coaches recruiting his teammates.
It wouldn't surprise me to hear that other coaches defined incidental contact differently, but I agree with landshark that they are not complying with NCAA standards if they engage in any kind of conversation beyond a basic greeting.
"..is not made for the purpose of recruitment of the prospective student-athlete, and involves only normal civility."
In my world normal civility can involve conversations, and other people may have other opinion. What is important is how the NCAA interprets "normal civility". This term is somewhat ambiguous and it appears that the NCAA has given coaches some leeway in this matter. Conversations involving recruiting are off limits. Lankshark is correct that many other rules apply which may prevent unavoidable incidental contact. The decision about initiating incidental contacts will be made by the coach and an athlete should understand that refusing to participate in an incidental contact does not mean that the coach is not interested in recruiting the athlete.
For K1, OVs did NOT include finances (HYP)
For K2, OVs to date have NOT included finances (not HYP)
WE as a family "vetted" the schools to go on the list (only from finance route) as K2 choose those on the list based on feel/after 1st visit.
With both kids we have not let them apply somewhere they couldn't attend because of finances. Either with FAFSA/Profile/calc estimates, work study, merit etc...we came to decide whether the schools stayed on or off.
We wanted the OVs for K1 and now K2 be about the college's culture, the coach/team fit and to consider IF injury/burnout sidelined them, would they be happy etc.
Our kids have traveled enough, spent summers away etc and so it was important that they feel it out and then come back/process etc.
K1 verballed at the OV (HYP) and our counsel ahead of time had been - it's musical chairs, when you find the right fit--SIT.
K2 is in the process and several OVs are in spring (already admitted- and we have the merit aid #s). So again, it will be all about fit.
My initial post as the OP is that the presence of pushy parents who forget its about the athletes, impact ALL of the athletes...and its not always a good thing...for the other students nor yours.