I am not trying to claim that Israel is completely innocent. If Olmert or whoever is in charge of Israel's military gave an order stating that he wanted 20 Palestinian civilians executed, I would want to know about it and I would condemn it. However, that is not the case nor has it been for some time now. Civilians are killed, but they are accidentally killed by Israel, not targeted.
If you think that all of these suicide bombings are "sad and terrible" (which all violence is), then why won't you recognize them as terrorism? That is clearly what they are.
Let me ask you a question about newspapers- What would happen if I took my little list and published it into a newspaper and distributed it throughout Egypt, Syria, or the Palestinian territories?
"That's right, because it doesn't openly target civilians."
read what i wrote again. If it ever said it does, do you think America would support it. And then read what my aquaintence hmh01 wrote. All of those quotes may as well say that they openly target civilians. And my board name is guguru.
"I'll be waiting for your list."
You could wait till pigs get wings and bacon starts flying, but there will never be such a list published.
I gave you a list of dozens of suicide bombings carried out by Hamas in which hundreds of innocent civilians were killed.
You gave me a list of a handful of Palestinian children killed (which is deplorable), but listed no circumstances for many of the deaths. Therefore it is not clear who/what was being targeted.
In addition, the allegations about children being arrested are useless, as there is a major difference between arresting a child trying to cross a border and blowing up a schoolbus full of them with the sole purpose of killing as many innocents as possible.
"You could wait till pigs get wings and bacon starts flying, but there will never be such a list published."
That is right, because Israel does NOT openly target civilians. So I'll be happy waiting till pigs get wings, because until they do then it means my side is in the right and is not targeting innocents like Hamas is.
guguru, I will quit pestering you on this issue once you acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group. I have given you my evidence, and I don't know how you can deny this.
"Let me ask you a question about newspapers- What would happen if I took my little list and published it into a newspaper and distributed it throughout Egypt, Syria, or the Palestinian territories?"
First off, the arabs will make sure ur little list could not be published into a newspaper and distributed, and if it was, then the arabs would make thier own lists using thier sources, which you would probably claim as being false and biased.
"If you think that all of these suicide bombings are "sad and terrible" (which all violence is), then why won't you recognize them as terrorism? That is clearly what they are."
By using that statement you are now saying that Israel itself uses terrorism. They use violence, they kill/detain and torture civilians (whether civil. are killed purposely or not is the subject of another debate). These two factors make Israel a state that sponsors terrorism.
hmh, thank you once again for proving my point. Israel does not target civilians. There are numerous reports of Palestinian children being arrested in your link. If Israel was targeting civilians, those children would not be arrested but would be shot on the spot.
Also, your link claims that Israeli forces surrounded the house of a terrorist and detained his family. If Israeli forces were as bad as you all say they are, they would have leveled the block instead of risking the lives of their soldiers in a risky ground operation.
take the time to read. stop being so ignorant. Look and READ. are you heedless of the facts.
you are clearly welcoming and condoning what just happened last week by Israel.
Clearly this is what you believe.
"Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.
And clearly this is a sign of cowardness, trying to evade the facts and trying to justify what Israel does and claiming all Palestinians are not human beings.
"That is right, because Israel does NOT openly target civilians."
PLEASE TELL ME WHY WOULD THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MAKE THIER OWN LIST OF CIVILIANS THEY HAVE KILLED?????
These lists must be made by outside sources, and never will a western source make such a list.
"guguru, I will quit pestering you on this issue once you acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group"
First off, i want you to adress other issues i have made that you are eluding. second, if you agree that israel is a terrorist state then both sides will balance out and i can get back to hw.
[qoute]By using that statement you are now saying that Israel itself uses terrorism. They use violence, they kill/detain and torture civilians (whether civil. are killed purposely or not is the subject of another debate). These two factors make Israel a state that sponsors terrorism.[/qoute]
Cool. By that definition every country on the planet sponsors terrorism, as we all have killed innocents at one point in time. And according to you it doesn't matter if the killing was intentional, so I guess we all support terrorism. Pretty neat, I guess.
[qoute]PLEASE TELL ME WHY WOULD THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MAKE THIER OWN LIST OF CIVILIANS THEY HAVE KILLED?????[/qoute]
I didn't get my list from the Israeli government, I got it from the media. The media lets me know every time there is an explosion in the Palestinian territories, and it tells me which terrorist leader was killed as well as how many innocent bystanders were involved. They would surely have reported it if Israel was targeting civilians...
Released by The Regional Council for Unrecognized Villages
On Tuesday, January 17, 2006 in the early morning about 200 Israeli soldiers came with two bulldozers to demolish several houses of Bedouin families living in the Naqab.
At 7 o'clock they started demolishing the house of Khaled al Nasasra living in the unrecognized village of Abu Solub, leaving him, his wife and his seven children with no dwelling. Right afterwards the soldiers moved on to another unrecognized village called Tlal Rashed where they pulled down the home of Khaleel Al-Hauashla. Another house of Al-Ataiga has been demolished in an unrecognized village just behind Rahat.
All those families are left with nothing but despair. They have no alternative accommodation for the night, making the situation worse is the fact that it is winter and very cold and rainy outside.
Pictures of House Demolition in Abu Solub. Note that the Bulldozers being used are made by VOLVO - Click on thumbnails to view pictures
Residents of the unrecognized villages - Israeli citizens - cannot build their houses legally, lacking any government planning policy in their villages and the government even acknowledges that this "illegal" building is done out of necessity. Nevertheless home demolitions are carried out in order to make the population abandon the land and force them into the government established 'concentration towns' to vacate the lands for Jewish settlements. The townships however are unable to absorb the entire population of the unrecognized villages.
This is a shamefully racist policy that is destroying the lives of entire families whose homes have been destroyed. Furthermore, this policy is clearly in violation of Israel's Basic Laws.
Before houses are demolished the state does not investigate a family's living alternatives and all those families of Tuesday's demolitions are left with no accommodation. What is making the situation worse is the way that demolitions are carried out - in a very brutal and cruel way. A large group of soldiers with their riffles in their arms, entering a family's home in the early morning and chasing everybody out, irrespective of the women and little children. Those women and children were left alone, crying out of fear and desperation, with no psychologist or anyone else to take care of them.
It is known that there are another 10.000 houses that the government wants to demolish because they were built without building permits. At the same time there are 1000 houses in Jewish settlements that were also built without permit, but not even one of them is subjected to demolition order.
Arabs are citizens of Israel - same as Jews - and should be treated equally. The government has to support those citizens and not destroy their homes.
The Association of the Naqab as well as the Regional Council for Unrecognized Villages has decided to rebuild the houses that were demolished yesterday because those families cannot be left without dwelling during winter season. We also wish to contact the acting PM Ehud Olmert because the situation can not continue like that. Houses cannot be demolished, especially not when it is as cold and rainy outside as it is now but an appropriate solution must be found for the Arabs living in the Naqab, helping them instead of destroying their lives.
[qoute]you are clearly welcoming and condoning what just happened last week by Israel. [/qoute]
I am condoning the arrest of suspected terrorist leaders, not the killing of innocents. You are welcoming and condoning suicide bombings in shopping malls. Which is worse?
Exactly, good one, finally you have made a good analysis. yes, by my definition every state sponsors terrorism. In a way this is true. Many states have/currently are sponsoring terrorism. But lets look at it this way, Israel was wrong to take Palestinian land in the first place. They are continuing thier soverign state sponsored terrorism. America attacked Iraq and afghanistan, while civilians were killed, we killed it to rid the world of threats like Osama and Saddam. Israel is not doing that. Israel is terrorizing Palestinians who are right in fighting for thier land back by n e means necessary.
Cry me a river. I asked you for evidence of Israeli soldiers specifically killing civilians with the sole purpose of killing as many as possible. So far you haven't been able to provide me with any, which only proves my point even more.
"I didn't get my list from the Israeli government, I got it from the media. The media lets me know every time there is an explosion in the Palestinian territories, and it tells me which terrorist leader was killed as well as how many innocent bystanders were involved. They would surely have reported it if Israel was targeting civilians..."
NO SHIZZLE you got it from the media. THE MEDIA WHICH WILL ONLY WRITE ABOUT WHEN ISRAELIS ARE KILLED. It will never tell you the proper amount of civilians killed, only arab newspapers will. but i doubt they are ur sources. I BESEECH YOU TO GO BACK AND READ MY POST ON THE ECONOMICS OF NEWSPAPERS.
Sorry man, but the media does write about it when Palestinians are killed. Trust me, I lived 6 miles from the Gaza strip, I heard an explosion, a few hours later I turned on CNN and it told me how many Palestinians were killed, how many were injured, and what they were doing at the time.
But according to your logic killing civilians is fine...
Replies to: Hamas Is In Control
I am not trying to claim that Israel is completely innocent. If Olmert or whoever is in charge of Israel's military gave an order stating that he wanted 20 Palestinian civilians executed, I would want to know about it and I would condemn it. However, that is not the case nor has it been for some time now. Civilians are killed, but they are accidentally killed by Israel, not targeted.
If you think that all of these suicide bombings are "sad and terrible" (which all violence is), then why won't you recognize them as terrorism? That is clearly what they are.
Let me ask you a question about newspapers- What would happen if I took my little list and published it into a newspaper and distributed it throughout Egypt, Syria, or the Palestinian territories?
read what i wrote again. If it ever said it does, do you think America would support it. And then read what my aquaintence hmh01 wrote. All of those quotes may as well say that they openly target civilians. And my board name is guguru.
"I'll be waiting for your list."
You could wait till pigs get wings and bacon starts flying, but there will never be such a list published.
I gave you a list of dozens of suicide bombings carried out by Hamas in which hundreds of innocent civilians were killed.
You gave me a list of a handful of Palestinian children killed (which is deplorable), but listed no circumstances for many of the deaths. Therefore it is not clear who/what was being targeted.
In addition, the allegations about children being arrested are useless, as there is a major difference between arresting a child trying to cross a border and blowing up a schoolbus full of them with the sole purpose of killing as many innocents as possible.
here is the direct link
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2006/26-01-2006.htm
look it up and Read and Understand
That was just for one week.... January 19-26, 2006.
Do you want the entire report?
pchrgaza.com
you can search all this on google. It is not hidden but only from the media in the west.
Check out: english.aljazeera.net
That is right, because Israel does NOT openly target civilians. So I'll be happy waiting till pigs get wings, because until they do then it means my side is in the right and is not targeting innocents like Hamas is.
guguru, I will quit pestering you on this issue once you acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group. I have given you my evidence, and I don't know how you can deny this.
First off, the arabs will make sure ur little list could not be published into a newspaper and distributed, and if it was, then the arabs would make thier own lists using thier sources, which you would probably claim as being false and biased.
"If you think that all of these suicide bombings are "sad and terrible" (which all violence is), then why won't you recognize them as terrorism? That is clearly what they are."
By using that statement you are now saying that Israel itself uses terrorism. They use violence, they kill/detain and torture civilians (whether civil. are killed purposely or not is the subject of another debate). These two factors make Israel a state that sponsors terrorism.
Also, your link claims that Israeli forces surrounded the house of a terrorist and detained his family. If Israeli forces were as bad as you all say they are, they would have leveled the block instead of risking the lives of their soldiers in a risky ground operation.
take the time to read. stop being so ignorant. Look and READ. are you heedless of the facts.
you are clearly welcoming and condoning what just happened last week by Israel.
Clearly this is what you believe.
"Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.
And clearly this is a sign of cowardness, trying to evade the facts and trying to justify what Israel does and claiming all Palestinians are not human beings.
PLEASE TELL ME WHY WOULD THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MAKE THIER OWN LIST OF CIVILIANS THEY HAVE KILLED?????
These lists must be made by outside sources, and never will a western source make such a list.
"guguru, I will quit pestering you on this issue once you acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist group"
First off, i want you to adress other issues i have made that you are eluding. second, if you agree that israel is a terrorist state then both sides will balance out and i can get back to hw.
Cool. By that definition every country on the planet sponsors terrorism, as we all have killed innocents at one point in time. And according to you it doesn't matter if the killing was intentional, so I guess we all support terrorism. Pretty neat, I guess.
I didn't get my list from the Israeli government, I got it from the media. The media lets me know every time there is an explosion in the Palestinian territories, and it tells me which terrorist leader was killed as well as how many innocent bystanders were involved. They would surely have reported it if Israel was targeting civilians...
Released by The Regional Council for Unrecognized Villages
On Tuesday, January 17, 2006 in the early morning about 200 Israeli soldiers came with two bulldozers to demolish several houses of Bedouin families living in the Naqab.
At 7 o'clock they started demolishing the house of Khaled al Nasasra living in the unrecognized village of Abu Solub, leaving him, his wife and his seven children with no dwelling. Right afterwards the soldiers moved on to another unrecognized village called Tlal Rashed where they pulled down the home of Khaleel Al-Hauashla. Another house of Al-Ataiga has been demolished in an unrecognized village just behind Rahat.
All those families are left with nothing but despair. They have no alternative accommodation for the night, making the situation worse is the fact that it is winter and very cold and rainy outside.
Pictures of House Demolition in Abu Solub. Note that the Bulldozers being used are made by VOLVO - Click on thumbnails to view pictures
Residents of the unrecognized villages - Israeli citizens - cannot build their houses legally, lacking any government planning policy in their villages and the government even acknowledges that this "illegal" building is done out of necessity. Nevertheless home demolitions are carried out in order to make the population abandon the land and force them into the government established 'concentration towns' to vacate the lands for Jewish settlements. The townships however are unable to absorb the entire population of the unrecognized villages.
This is a shamefully racist policy that is destroying the lives of entire families whose homes have been destroyed. Furthermore, this policy is clearly in violation of Israel's Basic Laws.
Before houses are demolished the state does not investigate a family's living alternatives and all those families of Tuesday's demolitions are left with no accommodation. What is making the situation worse is the way that demolitions are carried out - in a very brutal and cruel way. A large group of soldiers with their riffles in their arms, entering a family's home in the early morning and chasing everybody out, irrespective of the women and little children. Those women and children were left alone, crying out of fear and desperation, with no psychologist or anyone else to take care of them.
It is known that there are another 10.000 houses that the government wants to demolish because they were built without building permits. At the same time there are 1000 houses in Jewish settlements that were also built without permit, but not even one of them is subjected to demolition order.
Arabs are citizens of Israel - same as Jews - and should be treated equally. The government has to support those citizens and not destroy their homes.
The Association of the Naqab as well as the Regional Council for Unrecognized Villages has decided to rebuild the houses that were demolished yesterday because those families cannot be left without dwelling during winter season. We also wish to contact the acting PM Ehud Olmert because the situation can not continue like that. Houses cannot be demolished, especially not when it is as cold and rainy outside as it is now but an appropriate solution must be found for the Arabs living in the Naqab, helping them instead of destroying their lives.
I am condoning the arrest of suspected terrorist leaders, not the killing of innocents. You are welcoming and condoning suicide bombings in shopping malls. Which is worse?
Cry me a river. I asked you for evidence of Israeli soldiers specifically killing civilians with the sole purpose of killing as many as possible. So far you haven't been able to provide me with any, which only proves my point even more.
NO. Not by any means necessary. There is NO excuse to kill civilians, anywhere, any time.
How can you condone killing civilians? How????
Suppose you take my car. Is it right for me to kill your family because of that?
How can you support blowing up innocent people??? I don't understand how that is logically possible...
NO SHIZZLE you got it from the media. THE MEDIA WHICH WILL ONLY WRITE ABOUT WHEN ISRAELIS ARE KILLED. It will never tell you the proper amount of civilians killed, only arab newspapers will. but i doubt they are ur sources. I BESEECH YOU TO GO BACK AND READ MY POST ON THE ECONOMICS OF NEWSPAPERS.
But according to your logic killing civilians is fine...
If I went out an killed an arab because of 9/11 would you be happy for me?