"Easier said than done? They are suicide bombers; their goal in life is to die. Surely if they are planning on dying they aren't afraid of the military, so that begs the question why don't they target the military?"
tru, but if the military checkpoint sees them with a binocular a hundred feet away and decides to snipe them, well then the suicide bombers havent really accomplished their goals. You have played paintball, so you understand its all strategy. The palestinians are more or less stuck: they dont want israelis there, they have two options, harm israelis who cant fight back, or fight a superior american backed military.
and by saying this justifies that Israel kill civilians,well, hmm, you cant say that, because you have been saying all along that Israel does not.
No, my whole point all along has been who is justified in fighting for what, and the consequences of this war. I'm gonna stop here cause i made my point and I don't feel like arguing any more. This debate has been educational, props to u Cuse, but I'm afraid hw and projects call b4 wasting n e more time on collegeconfidential.
The land partitioned by the UN to become the nation of Israel was a majority Jewish. Not a single Muslim was kicked out.
I guess we all need a history lesson at times. Immigration(most of it illegal) to Palestine by jews started rapidly in the 1920's and hundreds of thousands immigrated to Palestine, again illegally, during the Holocaust. Because of this it created great tensions amongst the illegally immigrated jews and 1.2 million Arabs living in the area. When the UN drew its borders it did so in a way where certain districts with a large minority arab population were in a jewish state. Technically nobody was kicked out, but by differences in faith and ideologies essentially Arabs were booted out. Lets face it, Arabs had claim to all of the palestinian state well before many jews emigrated there from a war torn europe.
The main reason that Israel even got independence is because of strong Zionist lobbies in the United States(the same reason why Israel gets so many military weapon contracts from the U.S today, ever heard of AIPAC). Arabs have always been treated as second rate by the western world. Its not something to argue about, its a fact.
I still don't get why people think Israel has something to gain by killing civilians, as if they have a "secret" agenda that they must hide, since they're a recognized country unlike the Palestinians...
If they're not terrorists (i.e. not a threat) and killing civilians brings bad publicity, why would Israel target civilians--whether or not that intention is tacit or public? Civilians die in any war--that does not change whether or not that war is justified. But a war that EXPRESSLY targets civilians is not a war--it is terrorism.
And to the poster above, it is true--land given to Israel under the partition plan did have a majority of Jews on it. The non-Jewish land came from defensive gains after the War of Independence, instigated by the Arab countries. Given the clear hostile nature of its neighbours, Israel felt it necessary to keep that land--without it, Israel would have only been 9-10 miles wide at most points.
Any territorial war will produce refugees; the War of Independence was no different. Most of the Arabs that were "evicted" were not in Israeli territory mandated by the Partition Plan; however, neighbouring Arab countries refused to take in those refugees.
Let us not forget Barak's unbelievably generous offer that Arafat rejected--95% of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, a capital in Jerusalem and $30 billion in reparations for displaced Palestinians. The land offered here was more than enough to accomodate the Palestinian population, and it was land already occupied by many Palestinians. On top of that, the reparations acknowledged wrongdoing in the displacement of Palestinians. The fact that Arafat rejected this offer tells you a lot about the mindset of Palestinians. Their former leader was a terrorist (documented links to Munich and arms shipments to terrorists) and their current government has a stated policy of the EXTERMINATION of the State of Israel, of any Jewish state in the Middle East. By contrast, Israel has offered a state to Palestinians and is ready to coexist.
"I still don't get why people think Israel has something to gain by killing civilians, as if they have a "secret" agenda that they must hide"
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
Also Ben Gurion stated " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.
"The only solution is Eretz Israel, or at least Western Eretz Israel (=all the land west of Jordan River), without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.
"Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.
"There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here (Palestine) to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe should be left." Jospeh Weitz, Davar, 29 September 1947 from "My Diary and Letters to the Children", Massada, 1965, III, p. 293.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
You should read the posts before barging yourself in this thread and starting to post. You should read what has been said and what has been going on.
Palestinians? There is no country called Palestine. Meir was right. Illegally? According to who's law? Britain had no problem with it.
hmh01: Google "Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." - I see only pro-Palestinian forums, NO verified sources. Find me one for this and the rest of them.
"Let us not forget Barak's unbelievably generous offer that Arafat rejected--95% of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, a capital in Jerusalem and $30 billion in reparations for displaced Palestinians. The land offered here was more than enough to accomodate the Palestinian population, and it was land already occupied by many Palestinians."
the palestinians were on the land before the jews, they should not have to "accept" an offer on land that is theres, they should have all of it.
Replies to: Hamas Is In Control
tru, but if the military checkpoint sees them with a binocular a hundred feet away and decides to snipe them, well then the suicide bombers havent really accomplished their goals. You have played paintball, so you understand its all strategy. The palestinians are more or less stuck: they dont want israelis there, they have two options, harm israelis who cant fight back, or fight a superior american backed military.
and by saying this justifies that Israel kill civilians,well, hmm, you cant say that, because you have been saying all along that Israel does not.
All the Palestinian kids are going to grow up to be terrorists, so it is OK to kill them.
Any Palestinian must support terrorism in some way, so it is OK to kill them.
There are no innocents on either side. Everyone should just die.
Since Palestinians kill Israelis, Israel is perfectly justified in killing any Palestinian, any time, any where.
Pheewww....that makes me feel better.
I guess we all need a history lesson at times. Immigration(most of it illegal) to Palestine by jews started rapidly in the 1920's and hundreds of thousands immigrated to Palestine, again illegally, during the Holocaust. Because of this it created great tensions amongst the illegally immigrated jews and 1.2 million Arabs living in the area. When the UN drew its borders it did so in a way where certain districts with a large minority arab population were in a jewish state. Technically nobody was kicked out, but by differences in faith and ideologies essentially Arabs were booted out. Lets face it, Arabs had claim to all of the palestinian state well before many jews emigrated there from a war torn europe.
The main reason that Israel even got independence is because of strong Zionist lobbies in the United States(the same reason why Israel gets so many military weapon contracts from the U.S today, ever heard of AIPAC). Arabs have always been treated as second rate by the western world. Its not something to argue about, its a fact.
If they're not terrorists (i.e. not a threat) and killing civilians brings bad publicity, why would Israel target civilians--whether or not that intention is tacit or public? Civilians die in any war--that does not change whether or not that war is justified. But a war that EXPRESSLY targets civilians is not a war--it is terrorism.
And to the poster above, it is true--land given to Israel under the partition plan did have a majority of Jews on it. The non-Jewish land came from defensive gains after the War of Independence, instigated by the Arab countries. Given the clear hostile nature of its neighbours, Israel felt it necessary to keep that land--without it, Israel would have only been 9-10 miles wide at most points.
Any territorial war will produce refugees; the War of Independence was no different. Most of the Arabs that were "evicted" were not in Israeli territory mandated by the Partition Plan; however, neighbouring Arab countries refused to take in those refugees.
Let us not forget Barak's unbelievably generous offer that Arafat rejected--95% of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, a capital in Jerusalem and $30 billion in reparations for displaced Palestinians. The land offered here was more than enough to accomodate the Palestinian population, and it was land already occupied by many Palestinians. On top of that, the reparations acknowledged wrongdoing in the displacement of Palestinians. The fact that Arafat rejected this offer tells you a lot about the mindset of Palestinians. Their former leader was a terrorist (documented links to Munich and arms shipments to terrorists) and their current government has a stated policy of the EXTERMINATION of the State of Israel, of any Jewish state in the Middle East. By contrast, Israel has offered a state to Palestinians and is ready to coexist.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
Also Ben Gurion stated " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.
"The only solution is Eretz Israel, or at least Western Eretz Israel (=all the land west of Jordan River), without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.
"Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.
"There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here (Palestine) to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe should be left." Jospeh Weitz, Davar, 29 September 1947 from "My Diary and Letters to the Children", Massada, 1965, III, p. 293.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
You should read the posts before barging yourself in this thread and starting to post. You should read what has been said and what has been going on.
hmh01: Google "Jewish blood and a goy's (gentile's) blood are not the same." - I see only pro-Palestinian forums, NO verified sources. Find me one for this and the rest of them.
I posted about Palestinians doing wrong.
There is a difference.
Should I bring up some quotes from Palestinians stating that they wish every Jew was dead? They are much more recent than 1986....
Neverborn, if you believe that I am Nazi, then so be it. Indeed, there's nothing worse than having Jews put in gas chambers
USgay: We will defend Israel at all costs.
Yeah USA is the Jew's B-tch.
I would rather be a moron than a terrorist...
[qoute]USgay[/qoute]
Who is USgay?
"Let us not forget Barak's unbelievably generous offer that Arafat rejected--95% of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, a capital in Jerusalem and $30 billion in reparations for displaced Palestinians. The land offered here was more than enough to accomodate the Palestinian population, and it was land already occupied by many Palestinians."
the palestinians were on the land before the jews, they should not have to "accept" an offer on land that is theres, they should have all of it.
I would rather be a moron than a Zionist.