STEMFamilyRegistered UserPosts: 1,327Senior Member
edited June 2016
^this
I agree that 180 is alot if you are not including AP and transfer hours.
My D actually has 41 AP hours plus 6 hours of transfer dual credit from high school which only leaves 133 available. All of her hours are actually contributing to her majors and minor. Looking back she probably would not do the minor again, but do we really expect that students should know going in exactly what they want to study?
These rules may eliminate the 6+ year undergrad but I don't see how they are going to necessarily increase the 4 and 5 year graduation rates. I think it would make much more sense to track rate of progress toward whatever degree/s the student is admitted to.
These policies do nothing about students who take more years because they retake classes several times to pass which seems to happen a lot in D's major at ASU. In that case, they may take more than 6 years to graduate (or worse not ever get a degree at all) but it isn't because they hit some credit limit.
ucbalumnusRegistered UserPosts: 73,636Senior Member
Regarding students who fail and have to retake courses, note that at least some of the Texas policies count attempted credits, even if the student fails or withdraws from the course after the census date (effectively "wasting" the space in the course).
It is, however, not very friendly to count credits from before high school graduation (AP, IB, college courses taken while in high school) toward such limits, since high school students usually are not specifically following the course plans for a major and other college degree requirements, so many of the transferred credits earned before high school graduation may end up being generic elective credits.
For those kids coming into state public Us with 50+ hours of AP and/or dual enrollment credit (like my DS18), I could totally imagine a system where they would design aid (merit and otherwise) to encourage these kids to graduate in three years. As a self interested parent the luxury of that fourth year where my kid doesn't have to live in an adult world yet isn't on my couch when I come home from work sounds great. As a taxpayer thinking about the use of scarce resources, not so great. Yes there are some hours within the 50+ total hours that may not necessarily apply to a specific degree, etc. But since at least 30+ do, a fourth year isn't necessary, and if it becomes so it would totally make sense to me if it was on my dime.
ucbalumnusRegistered UserPosts: 73,636Senior Member
Re: #51
The main problem with that is that AP and IB credit, where allowed for subject credit and advanced placement, can only be applied to entry-level courses. So the student may not be as far ahead in progress toward graduation in terms of subject credit and placement as s/he may be in credit units. If the student's major has a long prerequisite sequence, then forcing him/her to graduate early due to the AP and IB credit may make scheduling more difficult than graduating on a normal schedule without any AP or IB credit.
I get that issue, but it seems overblown in the sense a kid would have had to have really overloaded in an area in HS to get that far off course.
Most UG degrees are less than 130 credit hours right? So with the distance between that and 150 hours a kid would have had to have taken more than 7 classes in HS for college credit that wouldn't count toward a degree. From where I am sitting, even though my kid has about every AP available to him, it would still be pretty hard for him to do.
If you conquer most of the APs, it seems like you will inevitably be covering the gen ed requirements at most schools. More typically you would end up with a few (two or three) extra social science courses than you need. Two or three though, not more than seven.
ucbalumnusRegistered UserPosts: 73,636Senior Member
Not all schools allow getting out of most or all GE courses with AP or IB credit. At such schools, lots of AP or IB credit may just be free elective credit.
PurpleTitanRegistered UserPosts: 11,774Senior Member
@ucbalumnus, most majors at American unis take only 1/4 to 1/3 of the 4 years of courses. Granted, there are exceptions (like engineering and other specialized curricula), but someone would typically have to either switch majors a lot or accrue multiple majors to bump against that limit even if they came in with a lot of AP credits. I can see the rationale for this limit. In the case of in-state tuition reductions and merit scholarships, a public school is subsidizing the student.
ucbalumnusRegistered UserPosts: 73,636Senior Member
It is closer to 1/3 (sometimes closer to 1/2) than 1/4 for the percentage of courses or credits that a typical liberal arts major consumes out of the total courses or credits. However, the main issue can be the lengths of the prerequisite sequences for required and elective courses in the major, if the student is forced to graduate in a smaller number semesters due to bringing in lots of AP credit that is not applicable to his/her major.
PurpleTitanRegistered UserPosts: 11,774Senior Member
@ucbalumnus, I've seen plenty of majors where only 1/4 (or less) of total credits are required for a major.
And for those majors with long sequences, 1. Many times, AP's can be applied to the beginning of those sequences.
2. Nobody's required to carry 18+ credits each term. Usually, 12 is enough to maintain fulltime status.
For my DDs, the taking of AP/dual credit from HS has/and will allow them to take classes and dig deeper into two disparate interests in college - one is English Lit and CE, for my younger DD -CS and visual art. Yes, they could both graduate in 3 years in their main focus of study but will take 4 with 18 hrs/semester to follow 2 different passions. Isn't that what college is for to prepare for the future but also to expand yourself personally. Neither of my kids have gone to our state flagship because this was not allowed. Too many kids and not enough seats but at other schools they welcome it.
And for those majors with long sequences, 1. Many times, AP's can be applied to the beginning of those sequences.
One example I know of is physics at Berkeley, which requires about 41% of the total credits for the BA degree. The prerequisite sequence is 6 semesters long for the courses required for the major, but some elective physics courses require 7 semesters to get to them. AP credit can shave off at most one semester from the prerequisite sequence, so the minimum prerequisite sequence is 5 semesters for the required courses, or 6 semesters if the student wants to take some of the electives. In addition, the Berkeley College of Letters and Science does not accept AP credit to fulfill its "seven course breadth requirement".
Fortunately, for physics majors at Berkeley, the applicable credit unit ceiling does not come into affect unless one goes beyond 8 semesters, and it does not count AP or IB credit, or college credit earned before high school graduation against the credit unit ceiling.
@STEMFamily - It is possible that the warning is a programming trigger which automatically sends out the note about 180 limit.
Has your D checked with the school or an advisor to see if it means anything to her since she is there on a scholarship? Since she is in her senior year, it will mainly impact her final semester if she takes 18 this semester and has only 12 left over.
Replies to: 150 hr rule in Texas...do other states have this?
I agree that 180 is alot if you are not including AP and transfer hours.
My D actually has 41 AP hours plus 6 hours of transfer dual credit from high school which only leaves 133 available. All of her hours are actually contributing to her majors and minor. Looking back she probably would not do the minor again, but do we really expect that students should know going in exactly what they want to study?
These rules may eliminate the 6+ year undergrad but I don't see how they are going to necessarily increase the 4 and 5 year graduation rates. I think it would make much more sense to track rate of progress toward whatever degree/s the student is admitted to.
These policies do nothing about students who take more years because they retake classes several times to pass which seems to happen a lot in D's major at ASU. In that case, they may take more than 6 years to graduate (or worse not ever get a degree at all) but it isn't because they hit some credit limit.
It is, however, not very friendly to count credits from before high school graduation (AP, IB, college courses taken while in high school) toward such limits, since high school students usually are not specifically following the course plans for a major and other college degree requirements, so many of the transferred credits earned before high school graduation may end up being generic elective credits.
The main problem with that is that AP and IB credit, where allowed for subject credit and advanced placement, can only be applied to entry-level courses. So the student may not be as far ahead in progress toward graduation in terms of subject credit and placement as s/he may be in credit units. If the student's major has a long prerequisite sequence, then forcing him/her to graduate early due to the AP and IB credit may make scheduling more difficult than graduating on a normal schedule without any AP or IB credit.
Most UG degrees are less than 130 credit hours right? So with the distance between that and 150 hours a kid would have had to have taken more than 7 classes in HS for college credit that wouldn't count toward a degree. From where I am sitting, even though my kid has about every AP available to him, it would still be pretty hard for him to do.
If you conquer most of the APs, it seems like you will inevitably be covering the gen ed requirements at most schools. More typically you would end up with a few (two or three) extra social science courses than you need. Two or three though, not more than seven.
And for those majors with long sequences, 1. Many times, AP's can be applied to the beginning of those sequences.
2. Nobody's required to carry 18+ credits each term. Usually, 12 is enough to maintain fulltime status.
What majors at what schools?
One example I know of is physics at Berkeley, which requires about 41% of the total credits for the BA degree. The prerequisite sequence is 6 semesters long for the courses required for the major, but some elective physics courses require 7 semesters to get to them. AP credit can shave off at most one semester from the prerequisite sequence, so the minimum prerequisite sequence is 5 semesters for the required courses, or 6 semesters if the student wants to take some of the electives. In addition, the Berkeley College of Letters and Science does not accept AP credit to fulfill its "seven course breadth requirement".
Fortunately, for physics majors at Berkeley, the applicable credit unit ceiling does not come into affect unless one goes beyond 8 semesters, and it does not count AP or IB credit, or college credit earned before high school graduation against the credit unit ceiling.
Has your D checked with the school or an advisor to see if it means anything to her since she is there on a scholarship? Since she is in her senior year, it will mainly impact her final semester if she takes 18 this semester and has only 12 left over.