shawbridgeRegistered UserPosts: 5,463Senior Member
@collegemomjam, Post #214 is really excellent. My kids are in grad school or done with grad school, so no big issue here. What you are providing is exactly what is needed.
I just spent Passover with my youngest sister and family in a Southern city. My niece (their oldest) has inherited some of the math ability that my father had (brilliant theoretical physicist regarded as a virtuoso mathematician among theoretical physicists), I had some of (PhD in applied math field from top school), and my son has (strong in math among computational and mathematical engineering grad students at top school). She is going to UMich Honors College, I believe, but was the top girl in her private school and won the school's math prize and in particular said she was most interested in math and physics (though is taking an econ course and is really enjoying it). I reviewed a couple of her essays and suggested she emphasize her interest in math/physics. She didn't apply to Yale where her father went because she said kids from her school don't get into Ivies (though I think she applied to Penn). Michigan was always a target as her aunt teaches there. I don't know her scores, but it was clear at an early age that she had math talent. Her family might have benefited greatly for the kind of strategic advice that you are offering, @collegemomjam.
My son showed me a list of admits to the Stanford Stats department masters program. Thirty kids -- half male and half female. Having a 50% female program is probably unusual for STEM-y subjects other than biology or neuroscience, but what was a bit more interesting. The males were evenly distributed across US/Canada, Europe and India/China. Of the 15 females, 14 were Asian (almost all Chinese from the names but maybe a few Koreans and Vietnamese) and one was Eastern European. Of the fourteen Asians, half were from Asia and half were American. This program is not that hard to get into (relative to the Data Science program, which I think had 14 kids of whom two were female or the PhD program). But, what are schools/families/societies telling non-Asian females about studying statistics that leads to such a non-representation? Does the push for girls in STEM fields include Asians?
collegemomjamRegistered UserPosts: 1,391Senior Member
Thanks @shawbridge. Sounds like your family has quite the strong math gene going on!! That's great!
Good question about the push for Female Asian Stem majors. I would say it depends on the school. Some schools are more Asian than others. Not to keep bringing up Villanova, but I would think an Asian female applying STEM there might still have an advantage because Asians are not ORM's at Nova. However, they are at many top schools, so at Penn or Cornell, I'm not sure what would have more of an impact....a bump from being a female applying STEM or would she be disadvantaged for being Asian? Unfortunately, I think being Asian at schools like Penn and Cornell would hurt her more than being a female applying stem....or at least the two would cancel each other out.
It's an excellent question.
I have two daughters that were top students and neither of them have any interest in science.
shawbridgeRegistered UserPosts: 5,463Senior Member
In the past, a high proportion of female STEMers are in biology and neuroscience, fields in which the employment prospects are not nearly as strong as in other STEM fields. I'm not sure that is still true.
My daughter was interested in human biology but is social and didn't want to spend her life working in labs. So, she decided on her own to transfer into nursing and entered a 5 year BSN/MSN program to become a nurse practitioner. At age 23, she is working as primary care NP with her own panel of patients in what appears to be a really well-managed clinic. This is a pretty responsible job for a 23 year-old. Two weeks ago, she tried to persuade a recalcitrant father that he should take his son to the ER because she thought the son had appendicitis. The dad got angry -- he thought she was practicing defensive medicine and he didn't want to pay a big copay and wait around the emergency room and then get sent home hours later -- and was berating my daughter. She stayed calm and just said, "OK, but if he has nausea or [symptoms of appendicitis], you really need to take him the the emergency room" and made sure that, even though he was angry, he understood the symptoms. That night, the kid had an emergency appendectomy. I helped her with admissions strategy but am very proud of how well she has pursued her interests and how well she is doing.
collegemomjamRegistered UserPosts: 1,391Senior Member
@shawbridge you should rightfully be proud. What an admirable profession. What a great profession. She can really help people, earn a good living, and have a balanced life. She made a great decision.
My daughter had an appendectomy a few years ago. It was subtle at first and luckily we had good doctors that saw it coming. Scary stuff. Good doctors and nurses like your daughter save lives.
ColoradomamaRegistered UserPosts: 1,683Senior Member
@shawbridge The push to enroll more women is coming from colleges themselves and all engineering colleges are pretty anxious for more female applicants. Look at engineering programs like Purdue, UIUC, Berkeley UT Austin, Georgia Tech and any college with the word TECH in the title. Asian American and Asian applicants are usually overrepresented in STEM majors, if they are men. Women of all races are underrepresented at most STEM focused schools, except MIT and Harvey Mudd College which both have nearly 50% women now in their undergraduate classes. STEM fields, especially chemistry and engineering, were being pushed in the 1970s up to present day, to high school women. I was one of those women. It did not work out that well for women of my age (57) as most of us were shoved out of engineering careers, when we got pregnant, or once we had childcare difficulties, many of us self selected out of engineering into other careers. I shifted into a career in prior art searching for patent litigation, other of my classmates chose business or psychology or teaching which were more female friendly at the time.
Neurosciences is a very new major. Many schools do not offer this major or its brand new. Its not clear to me what a bachelors degreed neuroscience major would do with such a major, except get a PhD in neuroscience, but physics, chemistry and biology are all similar, need a PhD to do much with it. The difference with physics,biology or chemistry is one can teach high school if one wants to., which a bachelors degree. Physics bachelors degrees lead to engineering positions or computer science positions too.
Neurosciences is a little overspecialized for an undergraduate degree, with few jobs at the end, besides lab tech for a PhD neuroscientist. Or head to medical school ! . I would not recommend girls or anyone do an undergraduate neuroscience major,but there may be others out there that know where the jobs might be. Its a research focused field that requires a PhD. A biology/psychology double major might be better, but then, if one is very sure, one wants to do lab research, on the brain, neuroscience might be a good major. The problem is, if you finish this degree, realize you do not want to become a scientist, the next step would be to go back to school and study something else.
This really isn't a thread discussing the value of certain majors. Dismissing certain fields, whether stem or humanities, is right next to advocating for pre-professional college studies. Many of us do not feel college majors need to be exclusively about a job and would never discourage a kid with genuine, informed interest. Nor say, at least with X, you could teach hs, unless teaching were a primary interest and skill. Or that pregnancy and family needs might shove you out.
I would not have wanted a private college counselor to tell my D1 what her major 'should' be, based on what the PC thought was a job track, unless my kid were focused exclusively on some specific career.
Maybe this thread has exhausted its firepower. It's certainly gone off track. But we should not discourage bright girls. Many roads can lead to fulfilling careers for those who can think, analyse, contribute, and have proven energy.
Returning to topic after the (hopefully soon removed) commercial break, actually @Coloradomama , neuroscience, and close cousins, are not as new a major as you'd think. While agreed, the field is burgeoning, its precursor, biopsychology was a major for decades.
Maybe this thread has exhausted its firepower. It's certainly gone off track.
I think there is plenty of potential left, but the real issue is that ppl in the know ain't talkin. This is a weakness inherent to any public forum and shows the limits of CC. Ironically, that's why private counselors exist: access to information that ppl won't give away for free on the Internet.
collegemomjamRegistered UserPosts: 1,391Senior Member
As it relates to the topic of this thread....
"Have you used a private admission consultant, if so what is your experience?"
If we've deviated off topic at all, it happened because there a relevant point arose, i.e., applying STEM at the advice of a private counselor who might have the background to realize that there are some schools (some, not all) where this could be an advantage (the "experience" part). No one has implied that a student should PRETEND to be interested in STEM to gain an advantage in the admissions process (although it does happen), but at 17 years old there are plenty of students that don't know exactly what they want to study or be when they grow up, so if a student has an interest in a STEM subject area, it might behoove them to indicate this interest on their application.
Just like all colleges are not equal, neither are all private counselors. Some are helpful and "worth it", and some are not. Depends on some combination of what they are able to offer their client offset by how much they charge.
@lookingforward I think everyone knows DIY is the least expensive. But, no pun intended with it being tax day, it's also less expensive to do your own taxes, but many people pay someone to do that because they have more knowledge in the area. It's cheaper to change your own oil in your car, clean your own house, mow your own lawn. Everyone has to decide for themselves what is worth it and the opportunity cost involved in making decisions on what to spend money on. Sometimes paying a small fee to someone who has more expertise in an area will more than pay for itself, i.e., knowing what schools give a lot of merit aid, or knowing about a new tax law that might entitle someone to more of a refund. It's kind of like buying a vowel on the Wheel of Fortune.
As with anything else, it just comes down to everyone's personal needs and wants.
Not sure what the purpose of the "...(hopefully soon removed) commercial break..." were @jym626 but there are more polite ways to get your point across. Most people on these threads have good intentions and try to help each other out...if you feel like a thread has deviated off topic or worse, that someone is trying to use these dialogs for personal financial gain, there is a more respectful way to handle it and not set a negative tone. And in defense of myself and the other private counselors that might use CC, we are typically on the boards because of our passion for the subject matter and to learn new things ourselves to help our clients....many of whom we don't even charge for our services because we also do a lot of pro bono work.
You may have missed a deleted overnight post from someone including the name of her consulting business and then just saying she wanted to point out that there are less expensive options. My post and another's refer to that.
"it might behoove them to indicate this interest on their application."
Show, not just tell.
I'm not opposed to private counselors. What I object to is the limitless promises some of the heaviest self promoters put forth and the claims they make to have insider experience. In some cases, the "expert" names bandied about have been out of the actual adcom environment for quite some time.
...if they were ever truly in it, in positions of responsibility and decision-making.
Sometimes paying a small fee to someone who has more expertise in an area will more than pay for itself,
Eh, what exactly is a small fee? Asking for a friend...
To continue your tax preparer analogy, you can get help from Jackson-Hewitt inside a Walmart, or you can pay millions of dollars to a white-shoe law firm with expertise in the relevant areas of the Code*. All depends on your needs and situation, your ability and willingness to pay. The same goes for private counselors. People were blanching early in this thread at fees of 5-10K. Then 25K was thrown out as some sort of possible upper limit. This is just getting started. A little searching will show there are counselors charging a million bucks. And that's before you get into the Chinese and Korean markets. You can be pretty sure that the people paying these fees are not looking for "oil change" advice on merit scholarships or whether to major in STEM. Different market, different concerns.
As to why these markets exist, imagine how many people have $100 million or more, and would part with less than 1% of their net worth to improve DC's chances, however marginally. This quantity also drives "the number" required by development offices to buy your way in. In fact, one potential area where a high-dollar counselor could perhaps provide advice is in figuring out a proper philanthropy strategy.
* I should clarify that I don't believe the differences in expertise between cheap and expensive college counselors are anything like the differences between Walmart tax preparation and the white-shoe law firm, even though the price disparity for services rendered may be similar.
collegemomjamRegistered UserPosts: 1,391Senior Member
@keiekei we are totally on the same page...I will private message you about my understanding of fees.
I said way back that I think the really ridiculously priced ones are not worth it....
@lookingforward I did miss a post, so thanks for pointing that out.
Any counselor that promises a client a top tier school isn't worth hiring. No one can promise that. Instead, a good counselor should be able to help the hell-bent on Ivy student and their parents that there are lots and lots of great options that are not Ivy or the like and convince them to give up a little on the "prestige" factor so that they can more objectively search for the right school. There are lots of great ones out there. My own daughter is currently turning down an Ivy (not Cornell) for a less "elite" school...
Replies to: Have you used a private admission consultant, if so what is your experience?
I just spent Passover with my youngest sister and family in a Southern city. My niece (their oldest) has inherited some of the math ability that my father had (brilliant theoretical physicist regarded as a virtuoso mathematician among theoretical physicists), I had some of (PhD in applied math field from top school), and my son has (strong in math among computational and mathematical engineering grad students at top school). She is going to UMich Honors College, I believe, but was the top girl in her private school and won the school's math prize and in particular said she was most interested in math and physics (though is taking an econ course and is really enjoying it). I reviewed a couple of her essays and suggested she emphasize her interest in math/physics. She didn't apply to Yale where her father went because she said kids from her school don't get into Ivies (though I think she applied to Penn). Michigan was always a target as her aunt teaches there. I don't know her scores, but it was clear at an early age that she had math talent. Her family might have benefited greatly for the kind of strategic advice that you are offering, @collegemomjam.
My son showed me a list of admits to the Stanford Stats department masters program. Thirty kids -- half male and half female. Having a 50% female program is probably unusual for STEM-y subjects other than biology or neuroscience, but what was a bit more interesting. The males were evenly distributed across US/Canada, Europe and India/China. Of the 15 females, 14 were Asian (almost all Chinese from the names but maybe a few Koreans and Vietnamese) and one was Eastern European. Of the fourteen Asians, half were from Asia and half were American. This program is not that hard to get into (relative to the Data Science program, which I think had 14 kids of whom two were female or the PhD program). But, what are schools/families/societies telling non-Asian females about studying statistics that leads to such a non-representation? Does the push for girls in STEM fields include Asians?
Good question about the push for Female Asian Stem majors. I would say it depends on the school. Some schools are more Asian than others. Not to keep bringing up Villanova, but I would think an Asian female applying STEM there might still have an advantage because Asians are not ORM's at Nova. However, they are at many top schools, so at Penn or Cornell, I'm not sure what would have more of an impact....a bump from being a female applying STEM or would she be disadvantaged for being Asian? Unfortunately, I think being Asian at schools like Penn and Cornell would hurt her more than being a female applying stem....or at least the two would cancel each other out.
It's an excellent question.
I have two daughters that were top students and neither of them have any interest in science.
My daughter was interested in human biology but is social and didn't want to spend her life working in labs. So, she decided on her own to transfer into nursing and entered a 5 year BSN/MSN program to become a nurse practitioner. At age 23, she is working as primary care NP with her own panel of patients in what appears to be a really well-managed clinic. This is a pretty responsible job for a 23 year-old. Two weeks ago, she tried to persuade a recalcitrant father that he should take his son to the ER because she thought the son had appendicitis. The dad got angry -- he thought she was practicing defensive medicine and he didn't want to pay a big copay and wait around the emergency room and then get sent home hours later -- and was berating my daughter. She stayed calm and just said, "OK, but if he has nausea or [symptoms of appendicitis], you really need to take him the the emergency room" and made sure that, even though he was angry, he understood the symptoms. That night, the kid had an emergency appendectomy. I helped her with admissions strategy but am very proud of how well she has pursued her interests and how well she is doing.
My daughter had an appendectomy a few years ago. It was subtle at first and luckily we had good doctors that saw it coming. Scary stuff. Good doctors and nurses like your daughter save lives.
Neurosciences is a very new major. Many schools do not offer this major or its brand new. Its not clear to me what a bachelors degreed neuroscience major would do with such a major, except get a PhD in neuroscience, but physics, chemistry and biology are all similar, need a PhD to do much with it. The difference with physics,biology or chemistry is one can teach high school if one wants to., which a bachelors degree. Physics bachelors degrees lead to engineering positions or computer science positions too.
Neurosciences is a little overspecialized for an undergraduate degree, with few jobs at the end, besides lab tech for a PhD neuroscientist. Or head to medical school ! . I would not recommend girls or anyone do an undergraduate neuroscience major,but there may be others out there that know where the jobs might be. Its a research focused field that requires a PhD. A biology/psychology double major might be better, but then, if one is very sure, one wants to do lab research, on the brain, neuroscience might be a good major. The problem is, if you finish this degree, realize you do not want to become a scientist, the next step would be to go back to school and study something else.
I would not have wanted a private college counselor to tell my D1 what her major 'should' be, based on what the PC thought was a job track, unless my kid were focused exclusively on some specific career.
Maybe this thread has exhausted its firepower. It's certainly gone off track. But we should not discourage bright girls. Many roads can lead to fulfilling careers for those who can think, analyse, contribute, and have proven energy.
The least expensive is DIY.
But this thread seems to trend to getting a perceived edge.
"Have you used a private admission consultant, if so what is your experience?"
If we've deviated off topic at all, it happened because there a relevant point arose, i.e., applying STEM at the advice of a private counselor who might have the background to realize that there are some schools (some, not all) where this could be an advantage (the "experience" part). No one has implied that a student should PRETEND to be interested in STEM to gain an advantage in the admissions process (although it does happen), but at 17 years old there are plenty of students that don't know exactly what they want to study or be when they grow up, so if a student has an interest in a STEM subject area, it might behoove them to indicate this interest on their application.
Just like all colleges are not equal, neither are all private counselors. Some are helpful and "worth it", and some are not. Depends on some combination of what they are able to offer their client offset by how much they charge.
@lookingforward I think everyone knows DIY is the least expensive. But, no pun intended with it being tax day, it's also less expensive to do your own taxes, but many people pay someone to do that because they have more knowledge in the area. It's cheaper to change your own oil in your car, clean your own house, mow your own lawn. Everyone has to decide for themselves what is worth it and the opportunity cost involved in making decisions on what to spend money on. Sometimes paying a small fee to someone who has more expertise in an area will more than pay for itself, i.e., knowing what schools give a lot of merit aid, or knowing about a new tax law that might entitle someone to more of a refund. It's kind of like buying a vowel on the Wheel of Fortune.
As with anything else, it just comes down to everyone's personal needs and wants.
Not sure what the purpose of the "...(hopefully soon removed) commercial break..." were @jym626 but there are more polite ways to get your point across. Most people on these threads have good intentions and try to help each other out...if you feel like a thread has deviated off topic or worse, that someone is trying to use these dialogs for personal financial gain, there is a more respectful way to handle it and not set a negative tone. And in defense of myself and the other private counselors that might use CC, we are typically on the boards because of our passion for the subject matter and to learn new things ourselves to help our clients....many of whom we don't even charge for our services because we also do a lot of pro bono work.
"it might behoove them to indicate this interest on their application."
Show, not just tell.
I'm not opposed to private counselors. What I object to is the limitless promises some of the heaviest self promoters put forth and the claims they make to have insider experience. In some cases, the "expert" names bandied about have been out of the actual adcom environment for quite some time.
...if they were ever truly in it, in positions of responsibility and decision-making.
To continue your tax preparer analogy, you can get help from Jackson-Hewitt inside a Walmart, or you can pay millions of dollars to a white-shoe law firm with expertise in the relevant areas of the Code*. All depends on your needs and situation, your ability and willingness to pay. The same goes for private counselors. People were blanching early in this thread at fees of 5-10K. Then 25K was thrown out as some sort of possible upper limit. This is just getting started. A little searching will show there are counselors charging a million bucks. And that's before you get into the Chinese and Korean markets. You can be pretty sure that the people paying these fees are not looking for "oil change" advice on merit scholarships or whether to major in STEM. Different market, different concerns.
As to why these markets exist, imagine how many people have $100 million or more, and would part with less than 1% of their net worth to improve DC's chances, however marginally. This quantity also drives "the number" required by development offices to buy your way in. In fact, one potential area where a high-dollar counselor could perhaps provide advice is in figuring out a proper philanthropy strategy.
* I should clarify that I don't believe the differences in expertise between cheap and expensive college counselors are anything like the differences between Walmart tax preparation and the white-shoe law firm, even though the price disparity for services rendered may be similar.
I said way back that I think the really ridiculously priced ones are not worth it....
@lookingforward I did miss a post, so thanks for pointing that out.
Any counselor that promises a client a top tier school isn't worth hiring. No one can promise that. Instead, a good counselor should be able to help the hell-bent on Ivy student and their parents that there are lots and lots of great options that are not Ivy or the like and convince them to give up a little on the "prestige" factor so that they can more objectively search for the right school. There are lots of great ones out there. My own daughter is currently turning down an Ivy (not Cornell) for a less "elite" school...