compmom10601 replies76 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 10,677Senior Member
edited September 2017
Silveria's speech is eloquent and forceful. It has gone viral. In the climate in this country right now, with a divisive president, this video reminds us of how the country should be.
Kids who do these "pranks" assume (arrogantly or naively) that others share their worldview or humor. Even if it is just a joke or a harmless insult, is it right for the institution's leaders to laugh along? Why should African American students acquiesce to the humor/worldview simply because the prank was well-intentioned, good natured? To borrow the words of Silveria, treating these violations as normal pranking is a horrible idea.
If this was not a threat (of course it was!), the question we should be asking is why the perpetrator(s) were so cocky as to think their "prank" was funny. Who did they think would join in the laughter? Who were they trying to entertain with this prank? Does it ever stop being funny, like when the prank is done repeatedly to the same kid or multiple kids?
simba93244 replies20 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,264Senior Member
If this was not a threat (of course it was!),
It could easily have been some drunk kids with impaired faculties doing this on the spur of the moment, and they simply thought it was funny. Writing on a whiteboard doesn't take a lot of though or effort. Let's stop treating it like it's a cross burning.
doschicos20434 replies209 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 20,643Senior Member
Let's stop making excuses for this. If you're drunk and/or think this is funny, and are motivated by either to do such a thing, I'm sorry but you are racist plus stupid and as Silveria so forcefully made clear, get out, you have no place there.
intparent36291 replies644 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 36,935Senior Member
So, these targeted cadets just need to remind their classmates that they are black, and the classmates will be embarrassed and apologize, and not offend again? Cuz, you know, the classmates just didn't realize that. Your analogy doesn't make sense. These students were targeted.
simba93244 replies20 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,264Senior Member
edited October 2017
Kids that age make stupid decisions. The people who wrote the stuff on the whiteboards could easily have been friends of the victims, and who didn't realize they were going overboard. When I was in the Air Force, we had pretty much every ethnicity and race represented in the squadron, and everyone cracked jokes that would have been considered extremely racist if you described the situation to someone who wasn't there. If a white guy said something lewd and racist about blacks, then a black guy would say something lewd and racist about whites. Then everyone would laugh. We all knew each other well enough to understand these were jokes, and nobody was spared.
I'm not saying my interpretation is definitely correct, but I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that the people who wrote the messages on the whiteboards were akin to the KKK. As I mentioned before, we don't know who did this yet, and you have to keep in mind that sometimes these incidents turn out to be staged by the supposed victims.
No matter what the motivation, whoever did it will get kicked out, not least because the incident made the Air Force Academy look bad.
I'm just wondering if the people who are criticizing my viewpoint ever served in the military, and know firsthand what the social environment there is like? The military isn't composed of choirboys or chivalrous knights.
I'm not familiar with military culture. But I am familiar with being drunk. A drunk person would pee at the door of his dorm mates, indiscriminately regardless of race because the urge strikes and you have very little mental judgement/ physical control. The person(s) who did this wrote a deliberate, pointed message that targeted only the black kids. This takes planning and forethought (he had to know and remember, for example, the locations of the black kids and avoid writing on a white person's whiteboard by mistake). This requires mental acuity and physical control, carefully timing to avoid detection, that a drunk does not have. The drunk excuse is weak.
Agree it's not a cross burning. But let's not call it harmless or dismiss it as bro culture.
I'm surprised that we keep stretching for excuses. Keep in mind, real threats to African Americans is far more likely, statistically speaking, than a staged hoax by the "supposed victims."
MYOS163441282 replies445 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 41,727Senior Member
edited October 2017
It's not back-and-forth lewd banter.
And if it had been bro culture, it would still need to be addressed.
But this wasn't back-and-forth banter, it was deliberate, targeted, and a threat.
(As for the KKK remark.... You can be a racist and not belong to the KKK.)
I'm astounded that *anyone* from our military forces (as simba9 says he is/was)
would make excuses for racists,
or that it isn't obvious to all that racism isn't acceptable, for cadets, officers,
or anyone decent and honorable.
The people who wrote the stuff on the whiteboards could easily have been friends of the victims, and who didn't realize they were going overboard.
The military isn't composed of choirboys or chivalrous knights.
But this was the AF academy prep school for candidates who have shown leadership or other qualities that would make them strong applicants for the academy. They would not be your average enlistees. These students are expected to be the chivalrous knights of the AF. And they weren’t just tossing racial insults back and forth in a context where everyone would accept it as a joke. As I understand it, “go home n****r “was written on the room boards of 5 black students. Anonymously. In the dead of night.
In the wake of Charlottesville, the NFL protests, etc., it’s difficult to understand how anyone doing this could think it is funny and would be interpreted as just a joke. What we’ve seen is certain elements feeling emboldened to express their racism.
simba93244 replies20 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 3,264Senior Member
edited October 2017
I'm astounded that *anyone* from our military forces (as simba9 says he is/was)
would make excuses for racists,
That's because you haven't been in the military. I'm more trying to explain what might be going on, than making excuses. Have you ever been in the locker room of a men's sports team? Until it's found out who did it, nobody really knows what the motivation for the messages was. While it looks bad, a message like that on a whiteboard doesn't convince me that the person who wrote it is genuinely racist.
This takes planning and forethought
No it doesn't. It could easily be a spur of the moment decision. It's not hard to write on a whiteboard.
If a guy makes a lewd and sexist joke about women, does that mean he hates women and should be viewed as a threat? Does getting drunk once mean you're an alcoholic. If you tip over a garbage can, does that indicate you're a hardened criminal?
doschicos20434 replies209 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 20,643Senior Member
"If a guy makes a lewd and sexist joke about women, does that mean he hates women and should be viewed as a threat? "
Maybe not a threat but it does make him a sexist, boorish ass and it would move him into the category of undateable in my eyes and the eyes of my daughter and many other women I know.
MYOS163441282 replies445 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 41,727Senior Member
I have zero tolerance for bad language, slurs, and insults. So, yes, I've been in places where people used bad language, and they didn't do it long. What I expect from leadership is no less than I expect from myself and those I'm with. A coach can shut that down quickly, a platoon commander can shut that down pretty quickly, and you can bet those cadets will remember too.
And, again this is not a joke, back-and-forth banter, slams, etc. This is a threat, and a slur. It takes a very specific person to think writing a threatening slur on someone's door is fun.
Yes, if someone write "Go kill yourself, c..." on my daughter's door, I don't see it as a joke, and yes I see it as a threat, as is the person who did it.
(No one spoke of hardened criminals, and by comparing what happened to getting drunk or tipping over a garbage can, not sure you're helping us understand how this could be seen as ok in any branch of the armed services.)
sciencenerd1532 replies236 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,768Senior Member
@simba9 -Why are you providing excuses for the culprits? It seems pretty clear exactly the message they wanted to get across and it is NOT ok.
I'm not sure when you served but that language and any language against anyone based on race is NOT ok either. Maybe it was "acceptable" before, but it is not now. (However, I am not sure if this is enforced as it should be.)
Replies to: Racist messages found at Air Force Academy Preparatory School
I'd pay money to Lt. Gen. Jay Silveria to come and give these students a piece of his mind.
If this was not a threat (of course it was!), the question we should be asking is why the perpetrator(s) were so cocky as to think their "prank" was funny. Who did they think would join in the laughter? Who were they trying to entertain with this prank? Does it ever stop being funny, like when the prank is done repeatedly to the same kid or multiple kids?
It could easily have been some drunk kids with impaired faculties doing this on the spur of the moment, and they simply thought it was funny. Writing on a whiteboard doesn't take a lot of though or effort. Let's stop treating it like it's a cross burning.
I'm not saying my interpretation is definitely correct, but I'm not going to jump to a conclusion that the people who wrote the messages on the whiteboards were akin to the KKK. As I mentioned before, we don't know who did this yet, and you have to keep in mind that sometimes these incidents turn out to be staged by the supposed victims.
No matter what the motivation, whoever did it will get kicked out, not least because the incident made the Air Force Academy look bad.
I'm just wondering if the people who are criticizing my viewpoint ever served in the military, and know firsthand what the social environment there is like? The military isn't composed of choirboys or chivalrous knights.
Apparently the commanders of the Academy don't find either point of view acceptable. We shouldn't either.
Agree it's not a cross burning. But let's not call it harmless or dismiss it as bro culture.
I'm surprised that we keep stretching for excuses. Keep in mind, real threats to African Americans is far more likely, statistically speaking, than a staged hoax by the "supposed victims."
And if it had been bro culture, it would still need to be addressed.
But this wasn't back-and-forth banter, it was deliberate, targeted, and a threat.
(As for the KKK remark.... You can be a racist and not belong to the KKK.)
I'm astounded that *anyone* from our military forces (as simba9 says he is/was)
would make excuses for racists,
or that it isn't obvious to all that racism isn't acceptable, for cadets, officers,
or anyone decent and honorable.
But this was the AF academy prep school for candidates who have shown leadership or other qualities that would make them strong applicants for the academy. They would not be your average enlistees. These students are expected to be the chivalrous knights of the AF. And they weren’t just tossing racial insults back and forth in a context where everyone would accept it as a joke. As I understand it, “go home n****r “was written on the room boards of 5 black students. Anonymously. In the dead of night.
In the wake of Charlottesville, the NFL protests, etc., it’s difficult to understand how anyone doing this could think it is funny and would be interpreted as just a joke. What we’ve seen is certain elements feeling emboldened to express their racism.
If a guy makes a lewd and sexist joke about women, does that mean he hates women and should be viewed as a threat? Does getting drunk once mean you're an alcoholic. If you tip over a garbage can, does that indicate you're a hardened criminal?
Maybe not a threat but it does make him a sexist, boorish ass and it would move him into the category of undateable in my eyes and the eyes of my daughter and many other women I know.
And, again this is not a joke, back-and-forth banter, slams, etc. This is a threat, and a slur. It takes a very specific person to think writing a threatening slur on someone's door is fun.
Yes, if someone write "Go kill yourself, c..." on my daughter's door, I don't see it as a joke, and yes I see it as a threat, as is the person who did it.
(No one spoke of hardened criminals, and by comparing what happened to getting drunk or tipping over a garbage can, not sure you're helping us understand how this could be seen as ok in any branch of the armed services.)
I'm not sure when you served but that language and any language against anyone based on race is NOT ok either. Maybe it was "acceptable" before, but it is not now. (However, I am not sure if this is enforced as it should be.)