HarvestMoon1Registered UserPosts: 6,228Senior Member
edited October 2017
All school's have to follow those procedures when alleged harassment is involved @roycroftmom. Title IX applies to high schools as well as colleges. Unless of course they are just ignoring policy and procedure which I agree would be problematic.
roycroftmomRegistered UserPosts: 1,839Senior Member
No. Title 9 only applies to all schools which accept, directly or indirectly, public funds from the federal government or are affiliated in a system which does. Our school does not and we know nothing about the school in question.
HarvestMoon1Registered UserPosts: 6,228Senior Member
edited October 2017
It is a charter school that is the subject of this thread. DOE says Title IX applies to charter schools. While the Dear Colleague Letter has been rescinded by DeVos and new guidelines are under consideration, Title IX as a law should still apply.
DOE letter confirming Title IX applies to charter schools:
tutumom2001Registered UserPosts: 1,037Senior Member
I disagree that it is a harsh rush to judgment that he lied. We know that (1) he has admitted to some inappropriate behavior, (2) he admitted that he DID NOT stop when asked, (3) allegations were previously brought up and ignored, (4) the parents never considered his actions were a problem until he was suspended (and still don't except for the repercussions), and (5) the school didn't just take the girls' accusations into account without due process - the boy was also interrogated.
Excusing and dismissing such behavior is why this country has a rape culture.
I will admit, quite honestly, that if the family seemed somewhat repentant over the actions and taken steps to apologize and assure the school and the girls' families that nothing like this would happen again, and to discipline the boy for his inappropriate behavior, that I might give them more slack. But they haven't appeared to do so, instead trying to excuse the behavior as the result of his being a dancer, of being new to the school, of being 15, of being immature, etc.
I will also admit, as the parent of girls, that if my daughter were on the receiving end of such behavior and I discovered that the school took no actions against the boy, *I* would be the one to get a lawyer and file police charges against the boy and his family as well as the school.
roycroftmomRegistered UserPosts: 1,839Senior Member
Sex harassment should be taken seriously. But 12 charges over a 4 week period suggests either he was constantly harassing most of his female classmates or collusion was involved. Either way it should be further explained by the school.
I guess I thought we were innocent until proven guilty in this country - even when we are kids. That doesn't mean excusing or dismissing that means getting all the facts and having due process. If the boy did lick them or 'grope' them I agree that is incredibly inappropriate, but we don't KNOW that yet. I was under the impression the parents didn't KNOW about any of it until he was suspended that there were even any accusations. Maybe I misunderstand - it is possible.
I have been reading this with keen interest over the last couple of days deciding if I should share another side to this and I think I will.
My son is 4 years older and is a Freshman in a co-ed dorm. He returned back to his room, after going away for a weekend, to find a letter from the school announcing he had been accused of several offenses including sexual harassment. He was stunned and neither he nor his roommate had any idea where this was coming from.
We (he and I) went to the investigatory meeting with the Dean and the report that had been filed was very incomplete, did not specify acts, specific "victims", dates, places, etc. it was mainly generalities with a list of 4 - 5 women that prepared the report. The over reaching theme was that he was asking/pressuring women for sex.
His explanation/defense was that his group of friends (the women in the report along with several other men) had several ongoing jokes that everyone engaged in, him no more than others and he was subjected to the same jokes from the complaining women. He provided other parties (male and female) that could provide details to this ongoing banter being universal.
The Dean then investigated, talked to the other parties and my son's witnesses and ultimately decided that there had been no violation of the student code and no harassment on his part. The Dean did explain that while everyone was joking and having a good time with the banter on occasion, an individual may have felt uncomfortable in the situation but as this was never expressed, no one ever left the room, and nothing was ever said about it, and the banter continued at future times there was nothing that could point to wrong doing. There is much more to the story but this hits the highlights.
Now that the investigation is over and he is "back to normal" he has learned what really drove this process, from some of the complaining parties. One of the women was upset with my son, not around anything in the report, but rather a comment he had made about another male friend in the group that she didn't like and misunderstood. Her decision was to go to the RA with complaints of sexual harassment, thinking the RA would talk to him, it would be uncomfortable for him, and he would "feel a little pain". She attributed statements to the other girls, most without their knowledge, when she went to the RA. The RA took her information at face value and submitted the allegation to the Dean without investigating the situation, expecting the Dean to investigate. Once the others were able to explain statements that were attributed to them they were able to refute the statements and defend my son, leading us to a good outcome.
This is a long way of saying I don't think we can say the OP's son is lying. These types of allegations are a very effective means of retribution and should be investigated fully before a decision is reached. Could the OP's situation be similar, the girls thought he was "weird" and he didn't take the hints to leave them alone so they exaggerated interactions to have the school force him to get the hint? two months ago I would have said no, now, after what we have gone through I say possibly. Is it further possible that in an attempt to bolster their exaggeration they have co-opted others into the story? Again two months ago I would have said unlikely, today I think it is possible.
Without the investigation the Dean conducted in my son's case he could have been facing serious consequences, just taking a story at face value. It sounds like that is what has happened here and I believe had I not been as involved with the Dean on my son's behalf the investigation may have been much more cursory than it was. My advice is to advocate for your son, ask to see any and all evidence, be able to see/hear the questioning of the girls, not everything is as it appears on first glance.
So, @iaparent , did anything happen to your son's accuser, or was the dismissal of the charges after the Dean's investigation taken as a repudiation of her credibility?
I still don't think I 100% believe the OP's story.
I am sorry that I did not preference my comments with I work at a public school. It has been my experience that public schools must have policies in place to deal with sexual harassment and bullying in school.
At the NYC DOE it falls under the Respect for All.
This is a difficult situation because there is no way to suggest the girls could also be lying without facing backlash. The reality is that this parent is doing his/her due diligence by investigating, asking questions, and even getting a counselor involved. I'm not really ready to make a judgement call on either parties. It's likely the truth is somewhere in the middle. Furthermore, this parent can hold his/her S accountable and still protect his/her S from extreme punishment or backlash.
Much like @iaparent I have a cautionary tale. My S had a group of kids (3 girls, 1 boy) accuse him of something (non sexual, but abusive in nature) in middle school. One morning he was called down to the office and interrogated about it. He kind of admitted to some of it, but not all, and was generally confused and blindsided. He was crying and upset. I was called and told he would be suspended for 2 days. When I picked him up and asked more questions, things didn't add up. The stuff he admitted to wasn't being explained well and he kept saying he didn't remember the stuff he did and didn't admit to. Still crying and very upset. I called the school and demanded a meeting. When I got there, the principal presented me with several additional statements from students she interviewed. However, after probing more, I realized my S wasn't at school during the two incidents. The principal was out when the incident occurred and the punishment was happening several days later. Her initial reaction was they got timing wrong. Except everyone interviewed agreed it happened at same time/place both days. The major hole in this story was that my S was doing a show at a professional theater company and missing a certain chunk of school 3-4 days a week for 3 weeks. Never in school for 2 days in a row during that time. What was eventually uncovered was that all the children had an argument the week before during lunch. The school admitted believing the kids so quickly because they had never been in trouble, there were multiple students making the same complaint, he was a new student, and general louder than most students (which I learned over the years that schools can interpret negatively). Fortunately a parent who was a lunch monitor caught wind of story from her child and spoke up. All kids, including my S, were involved in a nasty argument over a chair (seriously that dumb) and this group he thought he was becoming friends with targeted him. When I asked him why he admitted to some stuff he said because he thought it would go away because he was told to tell the truth and he wouldn't get in trouble.
My biggest regret is not removing him from that school. This incident never went away and a teacher even told him his reputation proceeded him when he complained about some bullying in class a FULL YEAR LATER. I was constantly defending him against a situation he was the victim of. While I'm not suggesting the OP's S was targeted, I would seriously suggest, despite the outcome, making a school change.
@IfYouOnlyKnew Unfortunately it is easy to make accusations and not so easy to prove them true (or untrue) -which is scary. When I was in college, a boy from my high school (who I went to junior prom with - 1 date and that was all) was borderline stalking me at college when I got there. He was a year ahead of me in school.
Well I guess he didn't like that I wasn't returning his interest and one day at a party (when we were all still of age in college) he dumped an entire pitcher of beer on my head. I went back to my dorm and showered and changed and chalked it up to him being a big jerk.
Apparently he wasn't only a jerk to me - a week later someone put firecrackers under his dorm room door. He immediately accused me to his RA and I got called to a disciplinary hearing -- I was the one being stalked but somehow here I was in trouble. LUCKY for me I happened to be away from school at a Rolling Stones Concert in the city and I had ticket stubs and friends that were there with me to prove it. If not, I have no idea what would have happened to me.
It was immediately assumed because he said it was me that it was me.
"I guess I thought we were innocent until proven guilty in this country - even when we are kids. That doesn't mean excusing or dismissing that means getting all the facts and having due process."
The counselor said that he admitted it. That's going to be enough proof for this school to impose a minor off-the-record suspension. He's not facing charges.
To dig a bit deeper based on 3puppies question, to date nothing has happened with the accuser but while we have a good outcome to date, things are not closed yet. I think her role in this is why he is still in a bit of limbo.
My wife wants blood from her for everything he (we) have gone through but I don't think there is a lot that can be done. She didn't necessarily allege anything that didn't happen, she just exaggerated or misconstrued the context and her role in the events so while this was very much retaliatory, she didn't outright lie.
The above being said, this same woman had already, in the first week of school, accused another student of stalking her. It was investigated and while we don't know the outcome he was able to move back into the dorm after the investigation. Rumor has it she has alleged he continued to stalk her and he is currently up for a full hearing for expulsion. My son has said that the kid is creepy and did follow her, ask her out, etc. but as he said the kid is awkward and probably did not mean anything by it. I have a feeling based on her filing 3 complaints within the initial 3-4 weeks of school they are looking into if she is part of the issue, especially in light of there being no finding against my son. My son has had all restrictions lifted so he does see her and I think they are waiting to close the file to see if she goes to the well again or if my son retaliates at all before he is completely exonerated and they move forward.
Replies to: High school suspension
DOE letter confirming Title IX applies to charter schools:
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201405-charter.pdf
Excusing and dismissing such behavior is why this country has a rape culture.
I will admit, quite honestly, that if the family seemed somewhat repentant over the actions and taken steps to apologize and assure the school and the girls' families that nothing like this would happen again, and to discipline the boy for his inappropriate behavior, that I might give them more slack. But they haven't appeared to do so, instead trying to excuse the behavior as the result of his being a dancer, of being new to the school, of being 15, of being immature, etc.
I will also admit, as the parent of girls, that if my daughter were on the receiving end of such behavior and I discovered that the school took no actions against the boy, *I* would be the one to get a lawyer and file police charges against the boy and his family as well as the school.
My son is 4 years older and is a Freshman in a co-ed dorm. He returned back to his room, after going away for a weekend, to find a letter from the school announcing he had been accused of several offenses including sexual harassment. He was stunned and neither he nor his roommate had any idea where this was coming from.
We (he and I) went to the investigatory meeting with the Dean and the report that had been filed was very incomplete, did not specify acts, specific "victims", dates, places, etc. it was mainly generalities with a list of 4 - 5 women that prepared the report. The over reaching theme was that he was asking/pressuring women for sex.
His explanation/defense was that his group of friends (the women in the report along with several other men) had several ongoing jokes that everyone engaged in, him no more than others and he was subjected to the same jokes from the complaining women. He provided other parties (male and female) that could provide details to this ongoing banter being universal.
The Dean then investigated, talked to the other parties and my son's witnesses and ultimately decided that there had been no violation of the student code and no harassment on his part. The Dean did explain that while everyone was joking and having a good time with the banter on occasion, an individual may have felt uncomfortable in the situation but as this was never expressed, no one ever left the room, and nothing was ever said about it, and the banter continued at future times there was nothing that could point to wrong doing. There is much more to the story but this hits the highlights.
Now that the investigation is over and he is "back to normal" he has learned what really drove this process, from some of the complaining parties. One of the women was upset with my son, not around anything in the report, but rather a comment he had made about another male friend in the group that she didn't like and misunderstood. Her decision was to go to the RA with complaints of sexual harassment, thinking the RA would talk to him, it would be uncomfortable for him, and he would "feel a little pain". She attributed statements to the other girls, most without their knowledge, when she went to the RA. The RA took her information at face value and submitted the allegation to the Dean without investigating the situation, expecting the Dean to investigate. Once the others were able to explain statements that were attributed to them they were able to refute the statements and defend my son, leading us to a good outcome.
This is a long way of saying I don't think we can say the OP's son is lying. These types of allegations are a very effective means of retribution and should be investigated fully before a decision is reached. Could the OP's situation be similar, the girls thought he was "weird" and he didn't take the hints to leave them alone so they exaggerated interactions to have the school force him to get the hint? two months ago I would have said no, now, after what we have gone through I say possibly. Is it further possible that in an attempt to bolster their exaggeration they have co-opted others into the story? Again two months ago I would have said unlikely, today I think it is possible.
Without the investigation the Dean conducted in my son's case he could have been facing serious consequences, just taking a story at face value. It sounds like that is what has happened here and I believe had I not been as involved with the Dean on my son's behalf the investigation may have been much more cursory than it was. My advice is to advocate for your son, ask to see any and all evidence, be able to see/hear the questioning of the girls, not everything is as it appears on first glance.
I still don't think I 100% believe the OP's story.
I am sorry that I did not preference my comments with I work at a public school. It has been my experience that public schools must have policies in place to deal with sexual harassment and bullying in school.
At the NYC DOE it falls under the Respect for All.
http://schools.nyc.gov/RulesPolicies/RespectforAll/default.htm
Much like @iaparent I have a cautionary tale. My S had a group of kids (3 girls, 1 boy) accuse him of something (non sexual, but abusive in nature) in middle school. One morning he was called down to the office and interrogated about it. He kind of admitted to some of it, but not all, and was generally confused and blindsided. He was crying and upset. I was called and told he would be suspended for 2 days. When I picked him up and asked more questions, things didn't add up. The stuff he admitted to wasn't being explained well and he kept saying he didn't remember the stuff he did and didn't admit to. Still crying and very upset. I called the school and demanded a meeting. When I got there, the principal presented me with several additional statements from students she interviewed. However, after probing more, I realized my S wasn't at school during the two incidents. The principal was out when the incident occurred and the punishment was happening several days later. Her initial reaction was they got timing wrong. Except everyone interviewed agreed it happened at same time/place both days. The major hole in this story was that my S was doing a show at a professional theater company and missing a certain chunk of school 3-4 days a week for 3 weeks. Never in school for 2 days in a row during that time. What was eventually uncovered was that all the children had an argument the week before during lunch. The school admitted believing the kids so quickly because they had never been in trouble, there were multiple students making the same complaint, he was a new student, and general louder than most students (which I learned over the years that schools can interpret negatively). Fortunately a parent who was a lunch monitor caught wind of story from her child and spoke up. All kids, including my S, were involved in a nasty argument over a chair (seriously that dumb) and this group he thought he was becoming friends with targeted him. When I asked him why he admitted to some stuff he said because he thought it would go away because he was told to tell the truth and he wouldn't get in trouble.
My biggest regret is not removing him from that school. This incident never went away and a teacher even told him his reputation proceeded him when he complained about some bullying in class a FULL YEAR LATER. I was constantly defending him against a situation he was the victim of. While I'm not suggesting the OP's S was targeted, I would seriously suggest, despite the outcome, making a school change.
Well I guess he didn't like that I wasn't returning his interest and one day at a party (when we were all still of age in college) he dumped an entire pitcher of beer on my head. I went back to my dorm and showered and changed and chalked it up to him being a big jerk.
Apparently he wasn't only a jerk to me - a week later someone put firecrackers under his dorm room door. He immediately accused me to his RA and I got called to a disciplinary hearing -- I was the one being stalked but somehow here I was in trouble. LUCKY for me I happened to be away from school at a Rolling Stones Concert in the city and I had ticket stubs and friends that were there with me to prove it. If not, I have no idea what would have happened to me.
It was immediately assumed because he said it was me that it was me.
The counselor said that he admitted it. That's going to be enough proof for this school to impose a minor off-the-record suspension. He's not facing charges.
My wife wants blood from her for everything he (we) have gone through but I don't think there is a lot that can be done. She didn't necessarily allege anything that didn't happen, she just exaggerated or misconstrued the context and her role in the events so while this was very much retaliatory, she didn't outright lie.
The above being said, this same woman had already, in the first week of school, accused another student of stalking her. It was investigated and while we don't know the outcome he was able to move back into the dorm after the investigation. Rumor has it she has alleged he continued to stalk her and he is currently up for a full hearing for expulsion. My son has said that the kid is creepy and did follow her, ask her out, etc. but as he said the kid is awkward and probably did not mean anything by it. I have a feeling based on her filing 3 complaints within the initial 3-4 weeks of school they are looking into if she is part of the issue, especially in light of there being no finding against my son. My son has had all restrictions lifted so he does see her and I think they are waiting to close the file to see if she goes to the well again or if my son retaliates at all before he is completely exonerated and they move forward.