NEPatsGirl2845 replies106 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,951Senior Member
Coward. Yes, it is always reasonable to expect a person paid to protect to do his job. I don't care how much money he makes, it was his job. Even if he was a $45K/year mall security guard or a school resource officer or a rookie on the town police force. These are kids.
What if the rookie on your police force refuses to do parts of his job because his starting pay is $40K? What if our military decided who/how/what to protect depending on their rank/pay? Should firefighters get decide whether they want to rescue someone from a fire?
I can say with a 99.9% surety that if I was armed in that same situation I would have gone in and tried to do whatever I could. There are women all over this world that put their own lives on the line for their children every day, teachers that do it every day for their students, neighbors who do it for each other. But we are paying someone to do the job and they don't do it. COWARD. Sitting back and collecting their nice paycheck for their cushy job, hoping they never have to do what they are paid to do. I am glad he has to live with this for the rest of his live, shame on him, good! I hope his is disqualified for pension too.
sylvan87986634 replies140 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 6,774Senior Member
So if they arm teachers will those teachers be called cowards if they don’t all run in and try to shoot the assailant? Seems like you could get a lot of bullets flying.
milee301977 replies13 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,990Senior Member
In our area, the SRO assignments are considered plum jobs that are highly sought after among the deputies. Second only to the number of law enforcement officers who want to land one of the coveted jobs on the various boat patrols. (Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like. Thanks to drug bust confiscations, Homeland Security $$$ and a few other grants, many of our LEO agencies in our area of coastal Florida have fancy power boats - like $200k Scarabs - that they assign officers to "patrol" in. Not a bad gig cruising the coastal waterways...)
The deputies that get the coveted SRO jobs have to have been not only good deputies to be eligible for such a plum, but they receive additional training. If the training doesn't include protocol about school shootings or other types of violence on campus, that's a major failing of the sheriff's department. But then again, this case showed failings on the part of the FBI, local police, local sheriff, child protective services, school administration... so what's one more?
This kid was open about planning a school shooting for months. Multiple people reported the threat to the FBI, police, sheriff and school administration. LEO had been called to the kid's house dozens of times in the past few years yet no arrests or charges, so no criminal record to prevent him from owning a gun. The kid introduced himself to people as a "future school shooter" and made multiple social media posts about being a school shooter. CPS didn't seem to have much of a hand in monitoring him after his mom died and he was couch surfing at various friends. School admin was afraid of him and warned teachers to report it if he ever showed up with a backpack. This kid did everything but tattoo "SCHOOL SHOOTER" on his forehead. Many people noticed, every possible law enforcement agency was warned... but still nobody did a thing. Nothing. Even when he showed up and actually did it. Deputies - including the one assigned to the school - waited outside until after the shooting had stopped and the shooter wandered away to get a snack at a fast food place. Failure on multiple levels here.
TatinG6302 replies109 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 6,411Senior Member
I don't understand why the Florida students' anger is not directed at the FBI, the Broward county sheriff's deputies, the school police officer and school administration. Maybe a hastag "Do Your Job" is in order.
anomander1651 replies4 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,655Senior Member
One of the lessons learned from Columbine was to immediately go in when there is an "active shooter". Police are now specifically trained not to wait (as they did prior to Columbine), but to immediately move towards the sounds of gunfire.
That said, police are human beings and can freeze or otherwise freak out. Nobody ever knows how they're going to react in the moment for the first time. It's easy for armchair quarterbacks to call that SRO a coward, but IMHO that judgement should be leavened with some empathy for someone encountering a traumatic situation for the very first time.
That SRO must be going through hell right now, going through a lot of "if only" scenarios in his head. Yes he failed to do his job and possibly lives were lost as a result, but I personally am not lining up to spit on the guy.
Cardinal Fang18205 replies155 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 18,360Senior Member
I'm not interested in spitting on the guy. I want to know why he did what he did, and what we should do better next time. I suggest two things: (1) change the training of police officers to put more emphasis on their bravery, selflessness and responsibility to the public and less emphasis on their own safety, and (2) make it more difficult to get guns.
I'm afraid, though, that it will always be difficult to expect a police officer who usually patrols school hallways looking for truants to suddenly shift gears and execute a probably suicidal attempt to stop a shooter. If we want school police officers to be ready to do sacrifice their lives to take down shooters, they have to get more specific, ongoing training. Or we could prevent shooters from getting guns.
To me it just emphasizes, underlines, highlights that we cannot rely on a good guy with a gun to take out a bad guy with a gun, even one with lots of training not to mention a teacher.
Iglooo8051 replies205 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 8,256Senior Member
edited February 2018
That said, police are human beings and can freeze or otherwise freak out. Nobody ever knows how they're going to react in the moment for the first time.
You forgot that they were trained to expect the unexpectable. They are not like you and me with no prior training against violence. They were trained to expect violence and what to do when that happens. Compared to other violent crimes, school shooting is probably mild relatively speaking. Don't officers deal with active shooters outside of school? I don't see how school shooting is any scarier than dealing with seasoned criminals and freezes four deputies to non-action. I would call for a full review of the sheriff department. They also got 18 calls regarding Cruz including a few about his gun collection that went unheeded.
doschicos20434 replies209 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 20,643Senior Member
"I don't understand why the Florida students' anger is not directed at the FBI, the Broward county sheriff's deputies, the school police officer and school administration. Maybe a hastag "Do Your Job" is in order."
Probably because they didn't cause the problem to began with? Solutions need to get to the heart of the issue of mass shootings not responses to them.
We can discuss here what the police should or shouldn't have done but the million dollar question remains, IMO, how to stop these events from occurring in the first place. A reminder that the USA stands out in the world for these mass shootings. They don't have to be a given.
dragon9092 replies2 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 94Junior Member
A couple of points:
1. There should be a distinction drawn here between elected sheriffs officers and career police officers. The Broward County Sheriff, like many across the country, is an elected official. Elected in this case in one of the most liberal counties in Florida. Consequently, the Broward Sheriffs Office (BSO) has both Law enforcement and Political aims and motivations, whereas the police, like Coral Springs, would be thinking law enforcement first and foremost, which may have factored into why the CSPD entered the building while the BSO stayed out.
2. The BSO and the Broward School Superintendent Runcie established a program in 2013, called the "Promise Program" to "break the school to jail pipeline" by keeping kids out of the criminal justice system. This means misdemeanors and less serious offenses such as vandalism, pot possession, etc would be dealt with by the schools and not by the sheriffs office. Where do they draw the line for a "serious offense"? How about bringing bullets to school or getting into fights? Evidently not there. The Promise Program https://www.browardprevention.org/behavior/promise/ is intended to "safeguard the student from entering the judicial system". The goal was to reduce the percentage of students who were arrested by LEO. Did it factor into why Cruz was able to go so long without a record and so be able to pass background checks?
3. Why the 26 minute tape delay? Has Jake Tapper asked this question? If so, I haven't seen a good answer. Certainly it wouldn't be to help the SRO control any video evidence of criminal behavior. that's crazy talk.
4. If the NRA, Gov Scott, Sen Rubio, anyone who owns a gun, has blood on their hands, what exactly is on the hands of BSO and Broward Superintendent?
Seeing that Israel guy on the news nauseates me. He gives a bad name to law enforcement officers everywhere with his arrogance and hypocrisy.
Iglooo8051 replies205 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 8,256Senior Member
edited February 2018
Where do they draw the line for a "serious offense"?
I don't think you would have trouble drawing the line with active shooting.
Whether electoral or career, you would think a police department should be capable of protecting the public. If they fail, why bother to have a police department elected or career?
anomander1651 replies4 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,655Senior Member
You forgot that they were trained to expect the unexpectable. They are not like you and me with no prior training against violence.
You can train and train and train, and still freeze when encountering a traumatic situation for the first time. It's just one of the unpredictable things about human nature. And not many cops have every actually fired their guns in the line of duty.
For a much less traumatic example, just think of all the people who practice a speech and then freeze when standing up in front of a group for the first time. You can train in front of your friends, but when you stand up on the podium for real the very first time, you just never know how you'll react.
So I guess this comes back to something we teach our kids. If you do something bad, are you a bad person or are you a good person who did something bad? Is that SRO actually a coward, or did he just act in a cowardly manner? I lean towards the latter.
partyof52549 replies125 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 2,674Senior Member
edited February 2018
Might I add that most offficers make a lot of money. All of the officers that I know make six figures once they get their overtime and pick up additional details. If we include their pension and lifetime healthcare they make quite a good living.
anomander1651 replies4 discussionsRegistered UserPosts: 1,655Senior Member
Why the 26 minute tape delay? Has Jake Tapper asked this question? If so, I haven't seen a good answer. Certainly it wouldn't be to help the SRO control any video evidence of criminal behavior. that's crazy talk.
I read an interview where someone had been reviewing the tape and therefore had it rewound. Somehow that wasn't communicated to later people, who then thought the tape was live.
Replies to: The Responsibility of Police Officers
What if the rookie on your police force refuses to do parts of his job because his starting pay is $40K? What if our military decided who/how/what to protect depending on their rank/pay? Should firefighters get decide whether they want to rescue someone from a fire?
I can say with a 99.9% surety that if I was armed in that same situation I would have gone in and tried to do whatever I could. There are women all over this world that put their own lives on the line for their children every day, teachers that do it every day for their students, neighbors who do it for each other. But we are paying someone to do the job and they don't do it. COWARD. Sitting back and collecting their nice paycheck for their cushy job, hoping they never have to do what they are paid to do. I am glad he has to live with this for the rest of his live, shame on him, good! I hope his is disqualified for pension too.
The deputies that get the coveted SRO jobs have to have been not only good deputies to be eligible for such a plum, but they receive additional training. If the training doesn't include protocol about school shootings or other types of violence on campus, that's a major failing of the sheriff's department. But then again, this case showed failings on the part of the FBI, local police, local sheriff, child protective services, school administration... so what's one more?
This kid was open about planning a school shooting for months. Multiple people reported the threat to the FBI, police, sheriff and school administration. LEO had been called to the kid's house dozens of times in the past few years yet no arrests or charges, so no criminal record to prevent him from owning a gun. The kid introduced himself to people as a "future school shooter" and made multiple social media posts about being a school shooter. CPS didn't seem to have much of a hand in monitoring him after his mom died and he was couch surfing at various friends. School admin was afraid of him and warned teachers to report it if he ever showed up with a backpack. This kid did everything but tattoo "SCHOOL SHOOTER" on his forehead. Many people noticed, every possible law enforcement agency was warned... but still nobody did a thing. Nothing. Even when he showed up and actually did it. Deputies - including the one assigned to the school - waited outside until after the shooting had stopped and the shooter wandered away to get a snack at a fast food place. Failure on multiple levels here.
That said, police are human beings and can freeze or otherwise freak out. Nobody ever knows how they're going to react in the moment for the first time. It's easy for armchair quarterbacks to call that SRO a coward, but IMHO that judgement should be leavened with some empathy for someone encountering a traumatic situation for the very first time.
That SRO must be going through hell right now, going through a lot of "if only" scenarios in his head. Yes he failed to do his job and possibly lives were lost as a result, but I personally am not lining up to spit on the guy.
https://www.npr.org/2012/07/21/157154275/how-columbine-shaped-police-response-to-shootings
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-columbine-lessons/index.html
I'm afraid, though, that it will always be difficult to expect a police officer who usually patrols school hallways looking for truants to suddenly shift gears and execute a probably suicidal attempt to stop a shooter. If we want school police officers to be ready to do sacrifice their lives to take down shooters, they have to get more specific, ongoing training. Or we could prevent shooters from getting guns.
You forgot that they were trained to expect the unexpectable. They are not like you and me with no prior training against violence. They were trained to expect violence and what to do when that happens. Compared to other violent crimes, school shooting is probably mild relatively speaking. Don't officers deal with active shooters outside of school? I don't see how school shooting is any scarier than dealing with seasoned criminals and freezes four deputies to non-action. I would call for a full review of the sheriff department. They also got 18 calls regarding Cruz including a few about his gun collection that went unheeded.
Probably because they didn't cause the problem to began with? Solutions need to get to the heart of the issue of mass shootings not responses to them.
We can discuss here what the police should or shouldn't have done but the million dollar question remains, IMO, how to stop these events from occurring in the first place. A reminder that the USA stands out in the world for these mass shootings. They don't have to be a given.
1. There should be a distinction drawn here between elected sheriffs officers and career police officers. The Broward County Sheriff, like many across the country, is an elected official. Elected in this case in one of the most liberal counties in Florida. Consequently, the Broward Sheriffs Office (BSO) has both Law enforcement and Political aims and motivations, whereas the police, like Coral Springs, would be thinking law enforcement first and foremost, which may have factored into why the CSPD entered the building while the BSO stayed out.
2. The BSO and the Broward School Superintendent Runcie established a program in 2013, called the "Promise Program" to "break the school to jail pipeline" by keeping kids out of the criminal justice system. This means misdemeanors and less serious offenses such as vandalism, pot possession, etc would be dealt with by the schools and not by the sheriffs office. Where do they draw the line for a "serious offense"? How about bringing bullets to school or getting into fights? Evidently not there. The Promise Program https://www.browardprevention.org/behavior/promise/ is intended to "safeguard the student from entering the judicial system". The goal was to reduce the percentage of students who were arrested by LEO. Did it factor into why Cruz was able to go so long without a record and so be able to pass background checks?
3. Why the 26 minute tape delay? Has Jake Tapper asked this question? If so, I haven't seen a good answer. Certainly it wouldn't be to help the SRO control any video evidence of criminal behavior. that's crazy talk.
4. If the NRA, Gov Scott, Sen Rubio, anyone who owns a gun, has blood on their hands, what exactly is on the hands of BSO and Broward Superintendent?
Seeing that Israel guy on the news nauseates me. He gives a bad name to law enforcement officers everywhere with his arrogance and hypocrisy.
I don't think you would have trouble drawing the line with active shooting.
Whether electoral or career, you would think a police department should be capable of protecting the public. If they fail, why bother to have a police department elected or career?
You can train and train and train, and still freeze when encountering a traumatic situation for the first time. It's just one of the unpredictable things about human nature. And not many cops have every actually fired their guns in the line of duty.
For a much less traumatic example, just think of all the people who practice a speech and then freeze when standing up in front of a group for the first time. You can train in front of your friends, but when you stand up on the podium for real the very first time, you just never know how you'll react.
So I guess this comes back to something we teach our kids. If you do something bad, are you a bad person or are you a good person who did something bad? Is that SRO actually a coward, or did he just act in a cowardly manner? I lean towards the latter.
I read an interview where someone had been reviewing the tape and therefore had it rewound. Somehow that wasn't communicated to later people, who then thought the tape was live.