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Help me love Haverford
dla26
162 replies22 threads Junior Member
[Sorry, long read ahead. It's mostly me thinking out loud.]
My daughter is applying to Haverford ED2. While by no means a slam dunk, I think she has a decent shot since she went to Have-A-Look, and this whole college admissions process could be over in a little more than a month. (Thank god.) On the other hand, part of me thinks she might also have a decent shot at some other great schools she hasn't had a chance to visit yet, like Vassar, Middlebury, Grinnell (maybe with merit aid?), etc. and I wonder if maybe she should have waited for the results at those schools - or maybe even her reaches like Amherst or Bowdoin. (She already submitted her ED2 application, so it's moot at this point.)
So I guess I'm not sure I get why she's so excited about Haverford in particular. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a great school. It's just that there are so many other great schools in that category. (Also, for the record, I know that it doesn't matter that I don't get why she's so excited, since I'm not the one who's going to be going. As long as she's excited, that's really all that matters.)
When I asked her, she said that she really likes the honor code system there and the fact that students are trusted enough to be responsible. Personally, I'm not sure I get that. I mean it's nice, but is that a reason to choose a school? Again, I feel like I'm missing something. They make such a big deal about the honor code, but I don't see why it's that interesting. I also didn't want to be too skeptical about it in front of her, since I wouldn't want her to pick up a vibe that I somehow disapprove of her choice.
The things I do like about Haverford are that the students seem to be fairly laid back and friendly, if a bit on the preppy side. The professors also seem to be really involved, even for a liberal arts college. I also really like the location. It's remote enough that people won't feel like they're constantly being pulled away to the giant city right outside the gates (like, say, Columbia) but has really easy access to Philadelphia. Also the consortium seems good, though I'm not sure she'll take advantage of it that much.
The things I'm a little on the fence about are:
Sports - Because it's such a small school, a very large percentage of students are varsity athletes. When we visited, they made a point to show how they were better than their rival (Swarthmore maybe?) and how they beat them every year. For a non-sports kid, that seems like a negative.
Quaker-emphasis - I looked through the course catalog and there were a bunch of history classes that examined events through a Quaker lens, like Quakers and the Abolitionist Movement, etc. And although I do think it's one of the chillest religions out there, we're not Quaker, so I don't think that's a big plus.
Size - My daughter is interested in a small liberal arts school, so I get the appeal of small, but 1300 students seems crazy tiny to me. Most other LACs are around 2000.
Name recognition - Maybe it's just me, but I had never heard of Haverford before she started looking at colleges. I had heard of some of its peer schools like Vassar, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Carleton, etc. Maybe that was just a gap in my knowledge, and it's just as well known as those others. It just wasn't on my radar. Then again, I do get that no one goes to a LAC for the brand name.
So yeah... kind of rambling at this point. If she gets in in a month, I want to be genuinely excited about it. Of course I'll be excited that she's excited, but I kind of want to love the school too. (Especially since it's most of my life savings that will be paying for it!) What am I missing?
31 replies My daughter is applying to Haverford ED2. While by no means a slam dunk, I think she has a decent shot since she went to Have-A-Look, and this whole college admissions process could be over in a little more than a month. (Thank god.) On the other hand, part of me thinks she might also have a decent shot at some other great schools she hasn't had a chance to visit yet, like Vassar, Middlebury, Grinnell (maybe with merit aid?), etc. and I wonder if maybe she should have waited for the results at those schools - or maybe even her reaches like Amherst or Bowdoin. (She already submitted her ED2 application, so it's moot at this point.)
So I guess I'm not sure I get why she's so excited about Haverford in particular. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a great school. It's just that there are so many other great schools in that category. (Also, for the record, I know that it doesn't matter that I don't get why she's so excited, since I'm not the one who's going to be going. As long as she's excited, that's really all that matters.)
When I asked her, she said that she really likes the honor code system there and the fact that students are trusted enough to be responsible. Personally, I'm not sure I get that. I mean it's nice, but is that a reason to choose a school? Again, I feel like I'm missing something. They make such a big deal about the honor code, but I don't see why it's that interesting. I also didn't want to be too skeptical about it in front of her, since I wouldn't want her to pick up a vibe that I somehow disapprove of her choice.
The things I do like about Haverford are that the students seem to be fairly laid back and friendly, if a bit on the preppy side. The professors also seem to be really involved, even for a liberal arts college. I also really like the location. It's remote enough that people won't feel like they're constantly being pulled away to the giant city right outside the gates (like, say, Columbia) but has really easy access to Philadelphia. Also the consortium seems good, though I'm not sure she'll take advantage of it that much.
The things I'm a little on the fence about are:
Sports - Because it's such a small school, a very large percentage of students are varsity athletes. When we visited, they made a point to show how they were better than their rival (Swarthmore maybe?) and how they beat them every year. For a non-sports kid, that seems like a negative.
Quaker-emphasis - I looked through the course catalog and there were a bunch of history classes that examined events through a Quaker lens, like Quakers and the Abolitionist Movement, etc. And although I do think it's one of the chillest religions out there, we're not Quaker, so I don't think that's a big plus.
Size - My daughter is interested in a small liberal arts school, so I get the appeal of small, but 1300 students seems crazy tiny to me. Most other LACs are around 2000.
Name recognition - Maybe it's just me, but I had never heard of Haverford before she started looking at colleges. I had heard of some of its peer schools like Vassar, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Carleton, etc. Maybe that was just a gap in my knowledge, and it's just as well known as those others. It just wasn't on my radar. Then again, I do get that no one goes to a LAC for the brand name.
So yeah... kind of rambling at this point. If she gets in in a month, I want to be genuinely excited about it. Of course I'll be excited that she's excited, but I kind of want to love the school too. (Especially since it's most of my life savings that will be paying for it!) What am I missing?
This discussion has been closed.
Replies to: Help me love Haverford
Haverford is a school for thinkers. It is the only school that I ever went to visit (when I was in college elsewhere) where my friends insisted I go to "the most amazing philosophy class" with them. In retrospect, how cool (okay, and unusual! ) that they were all so excited by a class (rather than a costume party with a keg!) Academically, it has long had a great reputation. The student body is diverse and inclusive. Great location.
I could not get my kid to consider it although two of his closest friends ended up there - both exceptionally nice, talented, smart kids. I have gotten to meet a number of recent grads and have been wowed by all of them.
I will say, fwiw, I think this may just be a gap in your college knowledge (which I get - we dropped into several when DC was looking at schools) rather than a reflection on the school. But I think your D is onto something.
I think it was Sarah Susanah Willie-LeBron (who is a prof at Swat) who said how disappointed her mom was when she chose Haverford over Harvard and how, looking back, Haverford was pivotal to her life. (I heard her at an event promoting Quaker colleges...)
Trust your D!! I can pretty much guarantee that if she gets in, both of you will be really impressed with the school. Really!
I personally think your concerns will subside quickly if your daughter attends. There are plenty of non-athletes and I believe there is actually a low percentage of Quaker students. There will be tons of intelligent, motivated students. I think there a much to be said about a Quaker education and the focus on community. The professors are engaged and truly care about their students (obviously not unique to Haverford). Having been a part of the tri-college community, I can tell you the consortium makes the school feel bigger and gives students the benefits of a larger school with more class options. You might be surprised how much your daughter takes classes on other campuses.
The location was a big part of why I would prefer Haverford over the other schools you have mentioned. It is an active suburb with easy access to the city. There is a lot to do in the area. I truly think you have much to be excited about for your daughter.
We figured, hey why don’t we check out Haverford and Bryn Mawr since we are here (we are OOS these days). We did a little unofficial tour of each and she absolutely loved Haverford from the minute she set foot on campus. She went back three more times to visit and read everything she could find about the school, her major, some clubs, and the consortium. The honor code did speak to her too. She’s a mature and independent woman and loves that the university places so much trust in the students. She sees it as a sign of respect. She loves that many of the faculty lives on campus and that they’re so accessible- she was even able to converse about the major over email and in person with faculty members before she applied. The fact that school is so small is a plus to her, and the consortium, especially the close relationship with Bryn Mawr, makes her feel more certain that it will feel bigger than the numbers. My D is an athlete, though not a varsity level, and she loves that there are great club sport opportunities. She loves the lack of Greek life and that something like nerd house exists.
My D first ranked Haverford in Questbridge. When that didn’t work out she switched to ED1. Honestly, had that not worked she would’ve applied to Bryn Mawr to get the next best thing (in her opinion). She was so happy to withdraw her apps from more prestigious schools where she had applied because she knew she was going to the right place for her. Since her acceptance I have been surprised at the number of people in a variety of my circles that know of and speak highly about Haverford. If prestige is something that really concerns you, it’s place at number 11 in the rankings for this year seems solidly prestigious to me. If you’re worried about name recognition.. well that’s probably something that won’t live up to its level of prestige, but my D is always excited to introduce new people to all the things she loves about the school.
If it makes you feel any better though, my husband was a little bitter to see her pull her apps from Brown and Harvard- he really wanted to know if she could get in. Even if we could know though- and she got in to both, it’s better for him to not know because he’d be even more disappointed when she still picked Haverford. Ha!
Middle Range SATs
Bowdoin
EBRW: 650-750
Math: 640-760
Haverford
EBRW: 700-760
Math: 690-770
(Sources: Common Data Sets.)
@merc81 - I did actually notice something similar to your point about the SAT range. I'm not a huge fan of the USNWR ranking system, since they heavily weigh things that don't really matter to me, like the 6-year graduation rate of Pell Grant recipients, but one thing that is helpful is that you can see how each school scored in a bunch of different categories, so if there are some metrics that matter to you more than others, you can just focus on those. I was impressed to see that Haverford actually ranked #1 on the "Student Excellence" measure, which I believe is a function of mid-range SAT/ACT scores and percentage of applicants in the top 10% of their class. (96% of freshmen attending Haverford were in the top 10%!) For comparison, Williams was #3 and Amherst and Carleton were tied for #6. (I only checked the schools my daughter is applying to, so I don't know what was #2, 4, 5, etc.) I'd be happy to share my spreadsheet in case anyone is interested.
One area I was a little disappointed by was the Peer Assessment rating, which is on a 1-5 scale. That's the rating I trust the most since the peer institutions would be in the best position to know which schools delivered the best education. Haverford was kind of in the middle of the pack among the schools my daughter is applying to. In case anyone is interested, here's the full list:
Williams - 4.7 (applied EDI but was deferred)
Amherst - 4.7
Bowdoin - 4.4
Carleton - 4.3
Middlebury - 4.3
Vassar - 4.2
Grinnell - 4.2
Haverford - 4.1
Bryn Mawr - 4.1
Wesleyan - 4.1
Oberlin - 4.1
Bates - 4.1
Colby - 4.0
Macalester - 4.0
Hamilton - 3.9
Scripps - 3.9
Kenyon - 3.9
Reed - 3.8
Lewis & Clark - 3.4 (Already admitted EA)
Willamette - 3.2 (Already admitted EA)
Another metric that I was interested in was Faculty Resources, which I believe is a function of student-faculty ratio, % of classes with 20 or fewer students, % of faculty with PhDs, etc.. Haverford ranked #18 among all LACs. None of the ones on my daughter's list was in the top 4, though Williams was #5 and Hamilton was #8.
Probably the biggest factor for me is how across the board everyone characterizes Haverford students as happy and friendly. I suppose that's ultimately the most important factor, since I want to make sure she really enjoys these next 4 years to the fullest.
Anyway, it was a tough choice but she is SO happy at H. She loves the honor code and the self-governance, and it makes a HUGE difference in the campus vibe. Her brothers both went to Midd, and I’d have to say her dad and I feel the mentoring, lack of emphasis on grades, alcohol policy and kindness and like-mindedness of the student body make it a superior learning and living community. Of course you can’t beat Midd for stunningly beautiful campus, but she (and we) feel totally thrilled with her experience so far.
For size, everything at Bryn Mawr is equally accessible to both student bodies, and they are less than 2 miles apart w frequent busses, so it’s essentially one campus for academic purposes. My DD took a class there her first semester, and some majors are centered at Bryn Mawr. They also have access to Swarthmore and Penn, tho that takes more planning.
Let her choose! It’s awesome!
We are Jewish and my son is somewhat religious (more so that his parents). Yet, he really loves the Quaker philosophy. He has taken a few of the "through a Quaker lens" classes and they are interesting to him in an academic sense. He has no plans to convert to Quaker but he does embrace some of the philosophies.
He is taking his first class at Bryn Mawr and I don't think he will repeat it. He is the only male in the room and I think that makes him uncomfortable. Personally, I think it is good for him having frequently been one of the only females in meeting in my career. It is always uncomfortable to be the only fill in the blank in the room yet you have to find a way forward and most people grow from the experience.
My son wanted a school where he could learn without being sidetracked by things like grades. He wanted an environment where students learn together. H has that kind of environment. Of course if you want to go on to grad school you have to worry about your own grades but he really likes the lack of cutthroat competition at H.
We’ve been extremely impressed with the care and attention paid to the athlete by the trainers. Our daughter had never done any weight training and they did an incredible job working with her to make sure she safely developed an individualized plan to be her best physical self.
Our son was a recruited athlete at Midd. Haverford has a much better supervised and organized program for out of season athletes.
My son is very involved on campus. Many of his friends come from his team. After all they spend a lot of time together, especially now that it is in season for them. However, he holds leadership positions in two clubs that are not athletic in nature (one religious, one political). His sport does not require him to give up everything else in his life. Nor does he have to stick to certain majors.
My son had a lot of weight training in high school and he really likes the H training program. He had some minor injuries this fall (off season) and got lots of support from the training staff with recovery.
As far a social life goes I would say my son spends a lot of time with his team mates. Since H has no Greek Life sports teams sometimes fill that void. His team throws parties, goes to other teams' parties and attends other events together. He has been happy there.
His only complaint is about the lack of diversity of viewpoint on campus. It is all liberal, all the time with little room for other viewpoints. He complains that there is simply an assumption that everyone agrees with the liberal orthodoxy with little thought given to the possibility that they don't. He says nearly all LAC are like this so he doesn't think it is unique to H.
And best of all...today she got in!