In some preps, the homeroom teachers are the point of contact- coordinators or mentors. A bridge of sorts. And when adults falsely confess, they can land in the same pickle.
Though it's not usual, a lot of kids are in BC in 10th. That, in itself, only shows he's capable.
Not understanding how the handling of this is assumed inappropriate. We are only viewing one side of this. I personally think having multiple teachers there was appropriate. Imagine the uproar this parent would be making if the teacher had accused her son of cheating ALONE without any witnesses. She would likely be accusing this teacher of much more with no other adults present.
Reading the little mom has posted...
- Teacher suspects son of cheating after having same answers as neighbor without supporting work (which peer had).
- Teacher emails administrator.
- Teacher meets with son along with his 2 homeroom teachers (who presumably know him better).
- Son admits to cheating.
- Son informs mom later that night and admits lying but says they were "very angry and insisting"
- Mom states that "the homeroom teachers stated in the meeting that he was a "brilliant" student and that they did not hold the incident against him, nor did they feel that it was a reflection of his character. They said they thought he just made a mistake." during initial meeting.
-Mom calls admin. and is upset that they talked to teen without her, upset that they accused him
- she doesn't understand the math herself and says the other 2 teachers also do not understand the math. She implied that the qualified and certified teacher does not understand either and only an additional math teacher that she is bringing into this and her son understand.
-Mom brings up contacting a lawyer.
Not sure that this was handled poorly at all. New teacher contacts admin. presumably with proof of cheating. Admin obviously advised and suggested to have advocate for child present as well as witness. If there was no proof the admin would have advised another solution (let it go, give additional problems, partial points off for missed work, etc...) Mom's own words contradict that he was in a room of very angry adults when she shares how fond everyone is of him at the school and the advocacy of the homeroom teacher.
Again,this doesn't pass the sniff test... What do the 3 adults and admin. have to gain from the narrative the mom is spinning? Accusations, angry parent, extra meetings, being called incompetent -- all for what gain?
Conversely, what does the son gain from this narrative? He gets out of trouble and possible get the teachers/administrators in trouble instead for a stupid mistake. Mom can save face and defend the honor of her son by painting the school as incompetent bullies with teachers who know less than her 10th grader.
If your relationship with school is that adversarial, and you seriously suspect it of frequent wrong-doing and false accusations, your child shouldn't attend, as little education will occur in that environment. Some parents expect school officials to enforce school rules on campus.
>Why in the world would a teacher need 2 adult back ups to discuss this with their student?
I know it seems like an impossibility to both the student and parent, but it's entirely possible that the 2 homeroom teachers were there to support/comfort the student. Especially since the OP also wrote this:
>The homeroom teachers stated in the meeting that he was a "brilliant" student and that they did not hold the incident against him, nor did they feel that it was a reflection of his character. They said they thought he just made a mistake. Also, there's no reason for him to get an F in the course, unless he fails on everything for the rest of the semester.
The school may also have a policy that there needs to be a second teacher in the room for difficult discussions with students.
Jazzymomof7 "Where did the OP say they both had the same wrong answer?"
OP did say ""he had the same answer on two problems of the person sitting next to him, basically without the supporting steps outlined thereon."
I suspect lots of kids sitting next to one another had the correct answer. It's common sense that the accusation was based on two identical wrong answers with one not providing supporting work.
Two take aways from the following OP statement if taken at face value; "My son has been at this school for 4 years and has an impeccable reputation as a great student with a lot integrity, empathy, and is an all-around asset there in every regard. He does not cheat, has never cheated, has never needed to cheat, and I believe him."
1) He wouldn't have been accused unless there was a real basis for the claim.
2) His entire world views this kid in a way that is extremely hard to live up to. He likely feels pressure to uphold and maintain this image and certainly the last person he would want to disappoint is his parents. That type of pressure can cause a child to act out of character.
Your son is taking Calc BC in 10th grade. That is super advanced.
Maybe he was having issues finishing the test...maybe he did copy some answers.
Maybe he doesn't want to disappoint you or himself that he can be this advanced.
I am sure he has always been "the math whiz" but what if he couldn't do this level of math at this age?
Just following this because I am interested in cheating. But I'm not following how the the thread got to the place where the obviously brilliant math student is smarter than teacher and can do math in his head, thereby bypassing the steps?
Even if teacher was not a calc student in high school, calc I and II (the equivalents of Calc BC) are freshmen level courses. Teacher presumably has at least an undergrad major in mathematics and probably some graduate level work in mathematics as he or she is teaching AP. But, hey, the 10th grader in calculus no doubt knows more?
As for the kids doing math in their heads, well bully for them, but the learning mathematics isn't about just solving problems, it's a systematic way of learning/thinking, which does involve learning to write down of steps, no matter how brilliant the learner, as skipping steps leads to mistakes later on. So, clearly the genius can compute, but does he understand the process? Answers with no steps would be a red flag.
Many of the above points are well taken, but in talking about kids' abilities in math especially, there is often a selection effect. The younger the student who takes the test, generally the greater the ability.
10th grade is fairly early to be taking BC Calc, especially because school systems tend to throw up many roadblocks to acceleration.
About 3.9% of kids who take BC calc do it in 10th grade, ~0.4% in 9th and 0.08% in <9th. I bet most of all those <11th grade kids get 5s, but the highest percentage of 5s will be the elementary school kids.
We just don't know enough about OP's kid, but we shouldn't make too many assumptions either way. As the parent of a kid who often didn't (or wouldn't) show intermediate work, I have unfortunately encountered the whole range of ability and temperament with respect to elementary and high school teachers.
But regardless of ability, the student presumably showed work for all the other problems on this test, and has done so for the last 6 months, so an exception is very hard to explain.
He said he had "consulted with a colleague" who also said it was impossible from the work on the page to derive those answers.
I had to go back to OP's post to catch this statement. Of course coming at us 3rd hand it is open to interpretation, but my reading of it is that the student might have started down the wrong path with the work shown, and then just plunked down the right answers. On TWO problems. If the logic isn't there, then he couldn't have arrived at said answer on that path.
And for all those who think their kids are so brilliant that they just don't have to bother with writing down their logic, that's horsepucky. Even the most brilliant scientists and mathematicians have to be able to convey their reasoning to others. We don't just take them at their word.
Would love for the OP to come back and update or at least answer the questions. The OP has implied that it is a private school. Not nearly as many roadblocks to acceleration as in a public school.
The data you are posting @SatchelSF is from the actual test % but not everyone in these classes takes the tests There are amazing math minds out there of which no one here would deny. I would venture that there are other students whose parents push to accelerate their child to keep up with the truly brilliant math minds and want their child to have the same opportunities and take the same classes. The pressure to keep up is intense. Not sure where OP's son fall on this but it doesn't change the action/reaction at all.
Either way, I don't think anyone here is questioning the intelligence of this teen. Intelligent teens make mistakes as easily as those not as brilliant. I bet every one of our own children could share with us stories of watching/knowing their peers cheat-- even those that were top of the class and off the charts intelligent. The school did not question his intelligence (on the contrary as the mom tells it the homeroom teacher confirmed that he is "brilliant"), they questioned his work on a test.
This is not about how brilliant or not the OP's son may be. It is about a child not having work that matches an answer that may or *may not* be correct. It is about a reasonable doubt about cheating (elevated to administration) and questioning a student for explanation. No valid explanation was forthcoming ( mom's words: "It is Calc BC and no one else in the room (the homeroom teachers) understands the his explanation. My son got really emotional and broke down in tears, and couldn't really explain himself well.") but he was able to explain that he cheated. This is about a mom who then vilifies the staff in an attempt to prove that her son would not/could not/did not cheat, calling into question their motives, their actions, and their intelligence. This is about posters who are quick to jump on and believe that a 10th grade kid would NOT cheat but that adults would risk their reputations and careers to bully a teen and accuse him for some unknown power trip based on bits and pieces from an angry mom.
- Teacher meets with son along with his 2 homeroom teachers (who presumably know him better).
- Son admits to cheating.
- Son informs mom later that night and admits lying but says they were "very angry and insisting"
Maybe the "angry and insisting" part needs to come first? How about this:
- Son is removed from class and meets with math teacher and 2 homeroom teachers.
- Son is asked if he cheated.
- Son says no.
- Son is explained the ramifications of cheating, and asked again if he cheated.
- Son says no, again.
- Son is getting upset and anxious.
- Teacher says he doesn't believe him, and is asked again if he cheated.
- Son says no, again.
- Son starts to sweat. More anxiety.
- Son is asked "how did you get the answer then?"
- Son tries to explain but explanation is not accepted.
- Son breaks down emotionally.
- Son is asked again if he cheated. Son says no.
- "Good" cop enters the conversation. "You know this will go easier for you if you just be honest." "We're not going to do anything to you. Just be honest." "You cheated, didn't you."
- Son says "yes."
- Questioning stops and son is relieved, but continues to sob.
I had to go back to OP's post to catch this statement. Of course coming at us 3rd hand it is open to interpretation, but my reading of it is that the student might have started down the wrong path with the work shown, and then just plunked down the right answers. On TWO problems. If the logic isn't there, then he couldn't have arrived at said answer on that path.
And for all those who think their kids are so brilliant that they just don't have to bother with writing down their logic, that's horsepucky. Even the most brilliant scientists and mathematicians have to be able to convey their reasoning to others. We don't just take them at their word.
The problem is that we don't know what the work showed or didn't show.
Some of my math and engineering tests in college had this requirement by the professors: "Show your work. No work no credit." Cal BC is a college level class.
2 of my 3 kids took Cal BC in 10 grade too. They dare not to ignore the teachers' rules because they knew they would lose points. My son could answer algebra questions in the middle school Mathcounts competition or calculus questions in high school academic league competitions in less than 3 or 5 seconds.
This is about posters who are quick to jump on and believe that a 10th grade kid would NOT cheat but that adults would risk their reputations and careers to bully a teen and accuse him for some unknown power trip based on bits and pieces from an angry mom.
You're right. Never has a HS teacher/administrator been on a power trip.
If you're going to accuse a student of cheating, you better have all of your ducks in a row. It's a serious offense. You better have strong evidence. It seems the evidence they are using is the "confession" rather than the test itself. That's what needs to change.
@yourmomma You added in an entire narrative that the OP did not include. The fiction of that is great but just list in order what mom wrote then added in her follow up posts. This might be your experience, your imagination, or even what mom has imagined, but it is not presented in what mom wrote. Again, this is not some Law and Order episode written for entertainment, this is real life. What possible reason for accusing a bright (teacher said "brilliant" according to mom), upstanding student? What is the motive behind such an interrogation? It is nonsense.
The school is going to want to talk to the student and see if he confesses before getting into a he said/she said situation between a student/parent/teacher but all logic of a first year teacher vs. an admired smart student would suggest to offer an out if the student says "this is my work, I'm not sure exactly now how I got from point a to point d but I did, and I did not cheat". If that was the case, I am certain the school would not have pushed it more. Where is the common sense that 3 ADULTS plus an administrator, respected teachers at a school where this mom has kept her child for 4 years, people who make the choice to work with kids knowing that they get this type of cr*p, would make up an entire narrative and push this child into confessing something he didn't do? What would be the purpose?
At out school, a cheating accusation would involve the teacher and the child's advisor and perhaps the disciplinary committee. The additional people are there to ensure everyone hears the same things and reacts fairly, not to gang up. I always appreciated this as there was a guaranteed adult advocate in the room.
Your momma's proposed narrative does not sound far fetched to me. Of course, we don't know whether or not things happened that way. That's why the parents should have been called.
In the past, when I read news stories of medical abuse, I always suspected there was more to the story. Why would any medical professional behave that way... 3 years ago, I was the victim of an incompetent nurse and a negligent doctor who instead of apologizing for making a life-threatening mistake, attempted to shame and bully me into silence. I was so baffled by the whole experience that I reached out to a few good friends (a nurse and 2 doctors) who said this behavior is unfortunately common, and patients would never know who the incompetent bullies are because the worst offenders seemingly have the best bedside manner.
Maybe you have to go through something like that to know you don't give your blind allegiance to any human in any profession. I don't know anyone who doesn't recognize that others in their profession can at times be mistaken, incompetent, deceitful, power hungry, etc. Why would we assume ALL teachers are above reproach?
Maybe the student was coerced into confessing, maybe he wasn't. We don't know the answer because his true advocates (his parents) weren't present. If the matter was important enough to have 3 teachers in the room to confront 1 child, then it was important enough to have parents present. With 3 teachers in the room against 1 student, there was a definite imbalance of power, no matter how great or well-intentioned the teachers may have been.
Replies to: 10th Grader Falsely Accused of Cheating
Though it's not usual, a lot of kids are in BC in 10th. That, in itself, only shows he's capable.
Reading the little mom has posted...
- Teacher suspects son of cheating after having same answers as neighbor without supporting work (which peer had).
- Teacher emails administrator.
- Teacher meets with son along with his 2 homeroom teachers (who presumably know him better).
- Son admits to cheating.
- Son informs mom later that night and admits lying but says they were "very angry and insisting"
- Mom states that "the homeroom teachers stated in the meeting that he was a "brilliant" student and that they did not hold the incident against him, nor did they feel that it was a reflection of his character. They said they thought he just made a mistake." during initial meeting.
-Mom calls admin. and is upset that they talked to teen without her, upset that they accused him
- she doesn't understand the math herself and says the other 2 teachers also do not understand the math. She implied that the qualified and certified teacher does not understand either and only an additional math teacher that she is bringing into this and her son understand.
-Mom brings up contacting a lawyer.
Not sure that this was handled poorly at all. New teacher contacts admin. presumably with proof of cheating. Admin obviously advised and suggested to have advocate for child present as well as witness. If there was no proof the admin would have advised another solution (let it go, give additional problems, partial points off for missed work, etc...) Mom's own words contradict that he was in a room of very angry adults when she shares how fond everyone is of him at the school and the advocacy of the homeroom teacher.
Again,this doesn't pass the sniff test... What do the 3 adults and admin. have to gain from the narrative the mom is spinning? Accusations, angry parent, extra meetings, being called incompetent -- all for what gain?
Conversely, what does the son gain from this narrative? He gets out of trouble and possible get the teachers/administrators in trouble instead for a stupid mistake. Mom can save face and defend the honor of her son by painting the school as incompetent bullies with teachers who know less than her 10th grader.
I know it seems like an impossibility to both the student and parent, but it's entirely possible that the 2 homeroom teachers were there to support/comfort the student. Especially since the OP also wrote this:
>The homeroom teachers stated in the meeting that he was a "brilliant" student and that they did not hold the incident against him, nor did they feel that it was a reflection of his character. They said they thought he just made a mistake. Also, there's no reason for him to get an F in the course, unless he fails on everything for the rest of the semester.
The school may also have a policy that there needs to be a second teacher in the room for difficult discussions with students.
OP did say ""he had the same answer on two problems of the person sitting next to him, basically without the supporting steps outlined thereon."
I suspect lots of kids sitting next to one another had the correct answer. It's common sense that the accusation was based on two identical wrong answers with one not providing supporting work.
Two take aways from the following OP statement if taken at face value; "My son has been at this school for 4 years and has an impeccable reputation as a great student with a lot integrity, empathy, and is an all-around asset there in every regard. He does not cheat, has never cheated, has never needed to cheat, and I believe him."
1) He wouldn't have been accused unless there was a real basis for the claim.
2) His entire world views this kid in a way that is extremely hard to live up to. He likely feels pressure to uphold and maintain this image and certainly the last person he would want to disappoint is his parents. That type of pressure can cause a child to act out of character.
No proof but then again we are all speculating.
Your son is taking Calc BC in 10th grade. That is super advanced.
Maybe he was having issues finishing the test...maybe he did copy some answers.
Maybe he doesn't want to disappoint you or himself that he can be this advanced.
I am sure he has always been "the math whiz" but what if he couldn't do this level of math at this age?
Even if teacher was not a calc student in high school, calc I and II (the equivalents of Calc BC) are freshmen level courses. Teacher presumably has at least an undergrad major in mathematics and probably some graduate level work in mathematics as he or she is teaching AP. But, hey, the 10th grader in calculus no doubt knows more?
As for the kids doing math in their heads, well bully for them, but the learning mathematics isn't about just solving problems, it's a systematic way of learning/thinking, which does involve learning to write down of steps, no matter how brilliant the learner, as skipping steps leads to mistakes later on. So, clearly the genius can compute, but does he understand the process? Answers with no steps would be a red flag.
10th grade is fairly early to be taking BC Calc, especially because school systems tend to throw up many roadblocks to acceleration.
About 3.9% of kids who take BC calc do it in 10th grade, ~0.4% in 9th and 0.08% in <9th. I bet most of all those <11th grade kids get 5s, but the highest percentage of 5s will be the elementary school kids.
We just don't know enough about OP's kid, but we shouldn't make too many assumptions either way. As the parent of a kid who often didn't (or wouldn't) show intermediate work, I have unfortunately encountered the whole range of ability and temperament with respect to elementary and high school teachers.
And for all those who think their kids are so brilliant that they just don't have to bother with writing down their logic, that's horsepucky. Even the most brilliant scientists and mathematicians have to be able to convey their reasoning to others. We don't just take them at their word.
The data you are posting @SatchelSF is from the actual test % but not everyone in these classes takes the tests There are amazing math minds out there of which no one here would deny. I would venture that there are other students whose parents push to accelerate their child to keep up with the truly brilliant math minds and want their child to have the same opportunities and take the same classes. The pressure to keep up is intense. Not sure where OP's son fall on this but it doesn't change the action/reaction at all.
Either way, I don't think anyone here is questioning the intelligence of this teen. Intelligent teens make mistakes as easily as those not as brilliant. I bet every one of our own children could share with us stories of watching/knowing their peers cheat-- even those that were top of the class and off the charts intelligent. The school did not question his intelligence (on the contrary as the mom tells it the homeroom teacher confirmed that he is "brilliant"), they questioned his work on a test.
This is not about how brilliant or not the OP's son may be. It is about a child not having work that matches an answer that may or *may not* be correct. It is about a reasonable doubt about cheating (elevated to administration) and questioning a student for explanation. No valid explanation was forthcoming ( mom's words: "It is Calc BC and no one else in the room (the homeroom teachers) understands the his explanation. My son got really emotional and broke down in tears, and couldn't really explain himself well.") but he was able to explain that he cheated. This is about a mom who then vilifies the staff in an attempt to prove that her son would not/could not/did not cheat, calling into question their motives, their actions, and their intelligence. This is about posters who are quick to jump on and believe that a 10th grade kid would NOT cheat but that adults would risk their reputations and careers to bully a teen and accuse him for some unknown power trip based on bits and pieces from an angry mom.
Maybe the "angry and insisting" part needs to come first? How about this:
- Son is removed from class and meets with math teacher and 2 homeroom teachers.
- Son is asked if he cheated.
- Son says no.
- Son is explained the ramifications of cheating, and asked again if he cheated.
- Son says no, again.
- Son is getting upset and anxious.
- Teacher says he doesn't believe him, and is asked again if he cheated.
- Son says no, again.
- Son starts to sweat. More anxiety.
- Son is asked "how did you get the answer then?"
- Son tries to explain but explanation is not accepted.
- Son breaks down emotionally.
- Son is asked again if he cheated. Son says no.
- "Good" cop enters the conversation. "You know this will go easier for you if you just be honest." "We're not going to do anything to you. Just be honest." "You cheated, didn't you."
- Son says "yes."
- Questioning stops and son is relieved, but continues to sob.
The problem is that we don't know what the work showed or didn't show.
2 of my 3 kids took Cal BC in 10 grade too. They dare not to ignore the teachers' rules because they knew they would lose points. My son could answer algebra questions in the middle school Mathcounts competition or calculus questions in high school academic league competitions in less than 3 or 5 seconds.
You're right. Never has a HS teacher/administrator been on a power trip.
If you're going to accuse a student of cheating, you better have all of your ducks in a row. It's a serious offense. You better have strong evidence. It seems the evidence they are using is the "confession" rather than the test itself. That's what needs to change.
The school is going to want to talk to the student and see if he confesses before getting into a he said/she said situation between a student/parent/teacher but all logic of a first year teacher vs. an admired smart student would suggest to offer an out if the student says "this is my work, I'm not sure exactly now how I got from point a to point d but I did, and I did not cheat". If that was the case, I am certain the school would not have pushed it more. Where is the common sense that 3 ADULTS plus an administrator, respected teachers at a school where this mom has kept her child for 4 years, people who make the choice to work with kids knowing that they get this type of cr*p, would make up an entire narrative and push this child into confessing something he didn't do? What would be the purpose?
2 identical incorrect wrong answers with no work shown...no ability to explain how answer was derived...confession.
Quack...quack...quack.
I have no idea if the kid cheated, but vilification of the educator should not be the default response.
In the past, when I read news stories of medical abuse, I always suspected there was more to the story. Why would any medical professional behave that way... 3 years ago, I was the victim of an incompetent nurse and a negligent doctor who instead of apologizing for making a life-threatening mistake, attempted to shame and bully me into silence. I was so baffled by the whole experience that I reached out to a few good friends (a nurse and 2 doctors) who said this behavior is unfortunately common, and patients would never know who the incompetent bullies are because the worst offenders seemingly have the best bedside manner.
Maybe you have to go through something like that to know you don't give your blind allegiance to any human in any profession. I don't know anyone who doesn't recognize that others in their profession can at times be mistaken, incompetent, deceitful, power hungry, etc. Why would we assume ALL teachers are above reproach?
Maybe the student was coerced into confessing, maybe he wasn't. We don't know the answer because his true advocates (his parents) weren't present. If the matter was important enough to have 3 teachers in the room to confront 1 child, then it was important enough to have parents present. With 3 teachers in the room against 1 student, there was a definite imbalance of power, no matter how great or well-intentioned the teachers may have been.