Make sure to check out our August Checklist for HS Seniors. Consult these quick resources to get you started on the process this month.
GUEST STUDENT OF THE WEEK: 10s4life just graduated from UCLA with a degree in electrical engineering. He'll answer questions about his experience at UCLA or the college admissions process. ASK HIM ANYTHING!
As we work to adjust to the current reality, make sure to check out these dedicated COVID-19 resources: our directory of virtual campus tours, our directory of extended deadlines, as well as the list of schools going test optional this fall.
Discovering Affordability
LookAtMyShoes
26 replies10 threads Junior Member
As my daughter works on essay analysis for her rising senior year, the question popped up, "Which colleges can I apply?"
Well, we have had some general ideas based on Net Price Calculators, but it's a good question. What is affordability?
If you've browsed my posting history then you'll see that we are a donut hole family. We make enough money to have to pay a lot for college, and being responsible we've saved up, which makes it more expensive. I won't chase that rabbit down the hole again, but the question of what should our daughter apply to is a good question.
So for a family that lives completely debt free it is important for us to get our children through undergraduate debt free. If they want an expensive grad school then it's on them. With the undergrad question in play I took on a three pronged approach.
1. Net Price - Go to each school's NPC and enter the info. For us it's ugly. I don't know how anyone can look at top schools and see the $300k+/4 years starting price and not choke, even with the "generous" financial aid NPCs return. Gotta love that "You qualify for $24,000 in financial aid and only will be responsible for $51,000 per year!" Thanks generic top school for your generosity!
2. Merit Aid - This is important because the NPC for most of the top schools is just too high even though we've put back 40% our take home pay for college for 7 years! If you aren't asset wealthy, and I mean in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, there's no way to make the NPC work in your favor. It's rigged, but I digress.
3. AP Credit - Our daughter's high school has a nice selection of AP classes to take. We are fortunate in that sense. I know there are a lot of high schoolers that don't have that option. So I sympathize, but it's part of our equation. We use the AP credit to say, if you want to go to X school, but it's per year cost is above our budget, then maybe use AP credits to get out of a semester or year to keep the total cost in budget.
It dawned on me though, is the AP route doable? There are very generous schools out there where 4s and 5s could reduce school from 4 years to 3, saving substantial money at very elite schools. But practically speaking, is this possible or will unforeseeable events such as class pre-reqs, only offered spring or fall, class full, etc that could derail this and end up forcing a 4th year if you've been planning for 3 financially?
I realize that as I write this, our situation is for the mid to upper middle class family with a high performing student that is shooting for the top schools. This student will be competitive for top schools (merit) and has a very difficult/competitive GPA (AP classes).
But maybe this discussion will open the eyes of parents new to the process or hadn't considered the entire package.
One thing I must say. Our daughter insists on applying to Columbia. She wants to eventually practice law in NYC. I love her drive and passion, but it concerns me. It absolutely fails our affordability test. She's as competitive as anyone else to get selected and if she does we can't afford it. I don't know what to do. There is a scenario where a generous school like Princeton or Stanford accepts her and she could get Columbia to compete, but I'm just as likely to sprout wings and fly too close to the sun.
Anyway, the human factor of desire and dreams could make all this financial planning go to crap.
And to throw more into this discussion, where does UChicago rank on affordability? Is it in the Harvard, Stanford, Princeton scale? Is it more like Yale, Brown, Cornell, Penn? For those wondering, the distinction is that home assets are not used in the first set of financial aid decisions. The exclusion of home equity makes them more affordable for our family.
I wish she'd give up the Columbia dream. Yes, I know the odds, and she does too. But plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Have a great time tearing me apart on this!
90 replies Well, we have had some general ideas based on Net Price Calculators, but it's a good question. What is affordability?
If you've browsed my posting history then you'll see that we are a donut hole family. We make enough money to have to pay a lot for college, and being responsible we've saved up, which makes it more expensive. I won't chase that rabbit down the hole again, but the question of what should our daughter apply to is a good question.
So for a family that lives completely debt free it is important for us to get our children through undergraduate debt free. If they want an expensive grad school then it's on them. With the undergrad question in play I took on a three pronged approach.
1. Net Price - Go to each school's NPC and enter the info. For us it's ugly. I don't know how anyone can look at top schools and see the $300k+/4 years starting price and not choke, even with the "generous" financial aid NPCs return. Gotta love that "You qualify for $24,000 in financial aid and only will be responsible for $51,000 per year!" Thanks generic top school for your generosity!
2. Merit Aid - This is important because the NPC for most of the top schools is just too high even though we've put back 40% our take home pay for college for 7 years! If you aren't asset wealthy, and I mean in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, there's no way to make the NPC work in your favor. It's rigged, but I digress.
3. AP Credit - Our daughter's high school has a nice selection of AP classes to take. We are fortunate in that sense. I know there are a lot of high schoolers that don't have that option. So I sympathize, but it's part of our equation. We use the AP credit to say, if you want to go to X school, but it's per year cost is above our budget, then maybe use AP credits to get out of a semester or year to keep the total cost in budget.
It dawned on me though, is the AP route doable? There are very generous schools out there where 4s and 5s could reduce school from 4 years to 3, saving substantial money at very elite schools. But practically speaking, is this possible or will unforeseeable events such as class pre-reqs, only offered spring or fall, class full, etc that could derail this and end up forcing a 4th year if you've been planning for 3 financially?
I realize that as I write this, our situation is for the mid to upper middle class family with a high performing student that is shooting for the top schools. This student will be competitive for top schools (merit) and has a very difficult/competitive GPA (AP classes).
But maybe this discussion will open the eyes of parents new to the process or hadn't considered the entire package.
One thing I must say. Our daughter insists on applying to Columbia. She wants to eventually practice law in NYC. I love her drive and passion, but it concerns me. It absolutely fails our affordability test. She's as competitive as anyone else to get selected and if she does we can't afford it. I don't know what to do. There is a scenario where a generous school like Princeton or Stanford accepts her and she could get Columbia to compete, but I'm just as likely to sprout wings and fly too close to the sun.
Anyway, the human factor of desire and dreams could make all this financial planning go to crap.
And to throw more into this discussion, where does UChicago rank on affordability? Is it in the Harvard, Stanford, Princeton scale? Is it more like Yale, Brown, Cornell, Penn? For those wondering, the distinction is that home assets are not used in the first set of financial aid decisions. The exclusion of home equity makes them more affordable for our family.
I wish she'd give up the Columbia dream. Yes, I know the odds, and she does too. But plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Have a great time tearing me apart on this!
Replies to: Discovering Affordability
You probably have seen already that you are more likely to get full AP credit, not just placement, at state schools and less selective private schools. My kids haven't looked at any of the Ivy schools except Brown, but we have looked at more selective LACs where pretty much across the board you can get AP credit but it won't count toward your general ed (breadth) requirements.
What I have seen often happening with families like yours is that if kid gets into dream college, or a particularly prestigious one, the parents break open that bank and borrow, do just about everything and anything to make it happen. If it’s a school without name recognition, it seems it’s a lot easier to be firm about the cost limitations. Too bad if Little Known Private U is your first choice. If it’s going to cost double big State U cost, not gonna happen.
So that’s where it likely will go with Columbia if your DD is accepted. If you possibly can, you’ll get the money to make it happen. If your assets and income are at s certain point, Columbia isn’t going to give you financial aid. These highly selfctivevschoold do not tend to negotiate price either. They don’t have to do do. And there is no merit money.
Fordham will likely come up with some money, for students who have stats to be in the midstream of Columbia acceptees. And if you are a NY State resident, total cost at s SUNY, sleepaway included will likely be $25k or so. So there you have it.
Her line of study is Political Science. Yes, I had issues with pre-reqs and availability as an Electrical Engineering student years ago, so that's why the worry with APs. It is an interesting proposition to look at schools in a 4 v 3 year parameter. It would make the experience tougher since the "easy" classes would be bypassed. I don't know, would you want to take an essays class or history class again if you didn't have to? There are a lot of essays I wouldn't want to write again. My daughter seems to be on the fence on that. She likes the idea of easy classes. I'd like the idea of no class at all even better.
Thanks for your responses.
As for "easy" classes. A college history class -- and the requirements for a paper for it -- at a decent university quite often will not compare to high school. The A student in high school taking a university-level class may have to struggle to get a C. And frankly, that's the way it should be. And probably will be at schools the caliber of Columbia or Harvard.
Can you pay for 3 years of Columbia? 2 years? If so, set that down as the budget limit. Life doesn't end after undergrad. Grad school is a possibility too.
Ask her what characteristics she likes about Columbia and see if they can be found elsewhere too.
You can also dig into department pages. Sometimes they will have a list of courses that will note when taught (every spring, every other fall, etc). If you visit, asking tour guides and current students about availability of classes and how easy it is to get into ones you want is a good idea.
Agree about setting budget expectations.. It avoids arguments to just say “you have $x for college “ and then let her do the research and math and reach her conclusions before she applies.
If she really really does (and you only have money for 2 years of Columbia with no fin aid), Columbia GS is an option. Would require a year of no schooling before Columbia GS (if she gets in). Credits from elsewhere would have to transfer too.
The wildcard at some school is the merit money for some kids. You just don't know until you apply and get accepted.
If she knew right now that Harvard and Columbia were out, would she study one second less for those tests? Would she opt for the regular math instead of the honors math so she could take it easy? I really doubt it. Top students are usually motivated by wanting to learn the material, not because the only reward is Harvard.
My daughter was a good student but not top of the class. She worked hard. I'd often get up on a Sunday morning and find her studying chemistry or math before going off to play lacrosse for the day. None of her teammates did that. She did not go to Harvard but she went to a school she liked and I could afford with merit aid and a lax scholarship, so I guess that part of the hard work paid off too.
If you cannot/will not pay for Columbia, then it has to come off of the list.
Columbia gives a max of 16 credits for AP courses
https://bulletin.engineering.columbia.edu/advanced-placement
It *seems* simple: you can only send her where you can afford without going into parental or student debt. Human desire is powerful. It mucks things up. Where will you bend to meet that desire? Either she or you will need to take out loans. Are you prepared for her to have heavy debt? Do you, after saving for so long and forking out a significant amount of your current income, want to get a parental loan on top of that?
Sure, let her apply to Harvard and Columbia.
If she also applies to more affordable public ivies (flagship state schools), National universities or excellent Liberal Arts College that offer merit aid, you will have some other options to weigh against the dream.
I think your daughter will probably want to use some AP's to relieve a little pressure once in a while for transfer credit, but I don't know if she wants to shave a whole year off her dream school, will she? Also it may not be possible to given core requirements, though I'm no expert in AP transfer.
It sounds like you are great parents with a lovely daughter. I think the sooner you settle in your mind what you can and can't afford and have that chat with her, the less heartache you're going to have.
It's OK not to go to your dream school if means avoiding crippling student or parental debt.
There's a lot that money can do for you if you let it grow and compound.
$300K compounding at a conservative 5% a year growth rate becomes $800K in 20 years. Nearly enough to retire if you are frugal/go live somewhere cheap. 2.1M in 40 years. Definitely enough to retire.
I know that I would much rather be a 40 year old who went to No Name Podunk U and has enough to retire or do the work I want (or nothing at all) rather than be a 40 year old wage slave Columbia and pricy JD grad with 6 figure debt being stuck in a job I hate.
If your daughter applied to Columbia and gets in (< 5% chance), then are you willing to pay ? Otherwise, don't let her apply. It is going to be very hard to turn down her dream school 'after' getting an acceptance.
I have heard of someone graduate Harvard in 3 years to save money, but this is quite unusual.
Possibilities with AP credits:
Graduating early
Taking year off traveling, working and still out in 3 paying years
Getting out of taking certain courses student doesn’t want to take
Able to start at more advanced level in field of interest
More leeway in course load and withdrawing from courses
In my experience, most kids going to the selective colleges where students tend to bond with each other and with the school community, it’s rare that kids graduate early.They really prefer to take every bit of the 4 years