12-Year-Old Headed to Cornell University as a Student

Parents Forum
321

That’s not a universal given, especially among those who are profoundly gifted or even non-gifted, but highly academically engaged.

If anything, most classmates from HS and college who were part of those two groups found life AFTER K-12 to be much easier and MORE ENJOYABLE than the childhood years when they were partially/completely confined to the mainstream K-12 schooling system.

Especially if it was for their entire childhood/teen years and/or by parents who they felt held them back because of their patronizing insistence they have a “normal” K-12 school experience they never wanted and ended up hating quite heavily.

While I’m not gifted…especially not profoundly gifted myself, I personally prefer life after K-12 and the greater freedom/independence it provides. In some ways, it’s much more easier to pick up/blending in socially as an undergrad/post high school adult among peers/older folks than it was in elementary/middle or mainstream high school environments.

As an aside, I am also a bit amused and perturbed by the assumption by some parents here that pre-teens cannot be interested/highly engaged in discussion of topics such as politics or current events.

Especially considering this line of thinking my Catholic elementary school rejected as illustrated by the teachers incorporating and having us engage with the presidential elections of the time, examining the issues, and yes…even voting for our “favorite candidate” in SECOND GRADE filled with 5-8 year olds.

One perk I took advantage of in my part-time job as stationary store cashier from 5th grade till nearly the end of freshman year of HS was to indulge my interests in current events/politics by reading the newspapers we sold when there was a lull in customers and discussing them with the owner and colleagues.

Papers ranged from the silly National Enquirer/NY Post/Daily News to the NYT. Also got to “borrow” some popular novels with permission of the owner which among other things got me to read and finish the 650+ page Red Storm Rising novel when I was 11.

I don’t know…but I can’t help but get the feeling some parents in the anti-acceleration/let kids have a “normal” K-12 experience school seriously underestimate how adolescents and young children can engage in deep serious discussions in areas such as politics or other seemingly “mature” topics…and enjoy them just as much/more than discussions of “kids stuff”.

While I liked cartoons and some kids stuff as the next kid…if that’s all the adults in my childhood/adolescence insisted on chatting with me about even at 7-8 years old, I would have felt they were being quite patronizing and impeding me from having the types of wider ranging engaging conversations I would prefer having.

My extended family also felt it was important for young children to be able to meaningfully engage older adults in conversations without feeling intimidated or forcing them to cater to our supposed need to confine discussions to “kids stuff”.

322

@NinaReilly

if some of us can freely be offensive to the family’s, whom none of us know, decision as malintented or a naive mistake, then I believe I can defend them just as well even though I, too, don’t know them personally.

And if some of us can freely use their personal experience to judge this boy’s possible needs, so can I, using my daughter’s experience.

On what bases do you judge that the boy’s abilities and needs are similar to your own at 12?

323

good point, cobrat, I guess I can’t know what a “normal” or “happy” childhood is like but for my own experience having had one.

324

Just for the record, no one has said that pre-teens CANNOT be interested in politics, current events, intellectual/scientific phenomena, etc. Moreover, no one has said that adults should only engage pre-teens in fun/silly/childish things. So let’s stop with that straw man that a pre-teen interested in “fun” things can’t be bright too.

325

well, SculptorDad, that’s exactly what I just said to cobrat. I don’t see how I, at least, am being “offensive” to the family when I say that I, personally, would feel awkward as a fellow student. That is how MY experiences color what MY reaction would be. As you said quite clearly earlier, I am not open-minded enough, perhaps.

All that said, and with your reflections and experiences considered, I would still never, ever send my own child to Cornell as a 12-year old, no matter how exceptional, talented, or what the IQ score. I would probably do exactly what you did if I had a genius child, using home-schooling and community college courses as a starting block. It’'s not the same path and I don’t agree that you can compare the two at all.

And I don’t agree that any 12 year old should be a full-time student at Cornell. No matter how much you know children who you think would thrive there. BECAUSE OF THE OTHER COLLEGE EXPERIENCES this child is missing out on. Socialization is an important part of life, too, even for geniuses. Now clearly, you have a different opinion about the purpose of college. And it seems like there are other (college) options that would match up better for this boy. As an alum, I don’t think Cornell is the place.

I think we all have our position on this… it’s like politics. You aren’t going to change my mind and I am not going to (nor do I really care about) changing yours.

326

@Pentaprism, your daughter’s situation is a good example of what I’m talking about. Every highly gifted kid is different, and every situation is different in terms of the family dynamics and the options available.

I’m certainly not advocating for college at 12. I think the hope for most families is to provide appropriate acceleration balanced with a “normal” environment in the least disruptive way possible. Sometimes schools will be willing to work with you; sometimes you are lucky enough to find a teacher who understands something about giftedness. At other times the options may be very limited, and you do the best you can.

We take it year by year. I’ll be meeting with my son’s GC, teachers and possibly administration at his new middle school to discuss his situation, armed with some objective testing data and some recommendations from people who have been working in the field for decades. Will it make a difference? I don’t know. If not, we’ll probably be looking for a different option for next year. My son will continue to do outside acceleration regardless. Maybe the school will let us substitute AoPS math (@SculptorDad, we’ve explored that one before, without success; maybe it will be different in a new school), and/or accelerate him a grade or 2 in math (he’s doing algebra II/geometry this year). He’ll continue advanced studies in music and art, often with kids 3-6 years older than he is. And we continue to explore other options yearly. When you find someone who is willing to accommodate, and who understands giftedness, you generally jump at the opportunity.

And again, academics is only one piece of the puzzle. I spend a lot of time telling my son that being smart isn’t the most important thing in life, that there is always someone smarter, that life is a marathon and not a sprint, and that it’s far more important to be a good person and lead a happy and fulfilled life than to achieve some arbitrary milestones. And I spend as much time trying to work on his socialization skills as I do on his academics.

I have no idea what motivated the family in the OP to choose college at 12 for their profoundly gifted son. I think there may have been less disruptive options. On the other hand, I don’t know the child or family in question, job relocation appears to have been part of the equation, and Cornell seems to be willing to make some accommodations, so I can’t say that there was a better option on the table. I hope it will work out.

327

@Nina, when would this student have the typical college experience? 5 years from now when he’s exhausted the college curriculum for his subject? Or should he simply put off the majority of his education for the next 5 years?

Let’s face it, this kid isn’t going to have a typical college experience no matter how he does it. He not a typical kid. I’m not a big fan of pushing kids to overachieve but if these parents are following the lead of a curious, highly motivated child I can understand why they might allow him to enter college at a very early age.

Community college classes are all well and good, but let’s face it, the intellectual stimulation this kid is going to get at a school with many students who are there because they’re not yet ready for the rigors of a 4 year university is not the same as what he’s going to experience at Cornell.

328

I agree with Ninas last post almost completely but I do think that SculptorDad makes a lot of good points.

A lot of kids don’t like it at Cornell. I don’t know how this plays into the whole discussion

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/transfer-students/565285-i-hate-cornell.html

329

Good grief, let’s be conceptual. Cornell specifically is not what is being discussed here. There is no college where there isn’t some percent of students who dislike it.

330

Cornell has a freshman retention rate of 97%. Of course, there are going to be some kids that don’t like it at Cornell. That’s true of any school.

331

@Sue22 wrote: “Let’s face it, this kid isn’t going to have a typical college experience no matter how he does it. He not a typical kid.”

I’m not even sure what a “typical college experience” is, and why it’s so important that everyone should have one. I entered college at 18, but had no interest in freshman bonding, frats, parties, etc. I was taking graduate courses as a freshman, and most of my close friends were upperclassmen and graduate students, and by 19 I was officially a graduate student myself. Did I “miss out” on something that had no interest for me? I think I got the experience that I wanted. Why should it be different for someone who enters at a younger age? And if it is, who is the arbiter of what constitutes a canonical college experience?

Sho Yano entered Loyola University of Chicago at age 9, graduated at 12 (in 3 years), was accepted to the Pritzker Medical School at the University of Chicago, and by 21 had graduated with an MD-PhD. Regarding concerns that he missed out on a “normal” adolescence, he noted: “I never understood that. Why would being allowed to challenge yourself be considered more damaging than being totally bored?”

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47688745/ns/health-health_care/t/prodigy-becomes-youngest-md-univ-chicago/#.V7I_N1dhNew

Obviously this kind of experience is not right for everyone, even among the profoundly gifted. But does that mean that it’s not right for anyone? Personally, I don’t think I have the right to judge.

332

Cornell graduate and parent of a Cornell graduate here.

Cornell is not for everyone. It’s big, especially in comparison to other elite schools. It’s far from any major city. Despite the stunningly beautiful campus, it can be a dreary place, with a long, cold winter. Except in the smaller schools (architecture, hotel, and industrial and labor relations), it’s easy to get lost in the crowd, and nobody holds your hand. You’re allowed and expected to take a lot of responsibility for yourself.

Cornell is best suited to independent types who are willing to work hard and who can take the initiative to find what they are looking for, rather than expecting it to come looking for them.

That said, plenty of students like Cornell just fine. I did. My daughter did. So did quite a lot of the other 250,000 living alumni.

But in any case, the boy mentioned in the original post is not going to have a typical Cornell experience. He’s going to have a great deal of individualized guidance from his parents, and the faculty will be much more aware of him as an individual than they would be of a typical student. Given his age, I think this is a good thing.

333

“There is no rush. If we were rushing than she wouldn’t be starting to a high school this Fall. What she is is how she is born. We all know that life as a child is whole lot easier. For some, it’s not a choice though.”

Oh come on. She’s already gotten, what, 60 college credits? Taken a boatload of APs? And she wasn’t being rushed? Don’t play this game that her education wasn’t heavily, heavily micromanaged. Most kids bound for elite schools at age 17-18 haven’t done all that but she’s done it at 12.

As for the 3 sd IQ. This is where I have to call nonsense. My IQ is also right at 3 sd above norm (verified by multiple tests through the years) and I kick butt on any standardized test I take.

That doesn’t make me some genius who needed to take 10 APs by age 12 or else I’d be bored senseless with the commoners to whom I can’t possibly relate because I’m such a Beautiful Mind.
It merely makes me a normal-bright person, who loved to learn but could find time to do “normal” kid things too, and who thrived on honors classes, independent study and a rigorous course of study at an elite u - at the general age-appropriate time.

It’s hard for me to believe that the vast majority of other people at that IQ level aren’t also simply also normal-bright - who take honors classes, go off to “good” schools at the age-appropriate times, do well, maybe graduate Phi Beta Kappa or whatever, and go on to nice careers and pursue intellectual pursuits in their spare time. It’s just a little much to portray 150 IQ people the way they are being portrayed here.

334

@renaissancedad , Just in case you haven’t, don’t forget to use Davidson counselor to help you advocating your child with the new school. And it might better if your psychologist could recommend something specific in a letter, instead of just giving the scores.

@Pizzagirl , I don’t see anything that I haven’t already explained repeatedly. So please allow me to skip it this time.

335

@renaissancedad, the most important thing the school officials care is saving their own butt. For that, giving them as much documentary support is important. They will feel safer to give you what you want, if they have those documents to back up their decision and claim due diligence if things go wrong.

Another trick I have repeatedly used successfully is asking for a “provisional” permission, explaining that this is only a temporary experimental permission that you are seeking, and they can take it away any time they want. They won’t, unless it goes wrong. But it gives them peace of mind, and also something to give to their supervisors and auditors when questioned.

336

My +3sd kid, when she was 12 years old, sounded a lot like your neice. Still loves shopping, hanging out with friends, doing her nails, etc. She also excels in school, but because we are fortunate to live in a town with a high performing school system, she is challenged, and there are a few kids at her level or possibly better.

But she is not like our son, who taught himself how to multiply at age 5, taught himself algebra by age 7, and discovered his own proof to the pythagorean theorem by age 9. As I said earlier, he needs mental stimulation like others need oxygen. We actively discouraged him from doing math by encouraging other physical and mental activities. But he attacks everything with deliberation, and after he won the national competition in the non-math activity, he has come back to math. We are not “tiger parents”, but he is a “tiger child”. We are comforted by the fact that he does well socially.

Do not extrapolate the needs of a +3sd person and think that +4sd or higher person has the same needs. They are not remotely the same.

337

Agreed.

Especially considering the academic quality/rigor of community colleges with few exceptions tend to be on the lower side in the academic rigor/level department.

The ones in the NYC area were such that advanced not necessarily genuine genius type HS classmates who exhausted what my public magnet HS could offer academically…especially in STEM would be encouraged by HS admins to arrange Dual-enrollment with mid-advanced undergrad or even lower-level graduate courses at the local 4-year universities including elites like Columbia.

Attempting dual enrollment at the local community colleges for most kids at my public magnet would be a non-starter as their highest level courses…especially in STEM would practically be repeating material they’ve learned in 9th grade, middle school, or in some cases even elementary school.

Speaking for my own HS vs undergrad/grad school experience at a respectable LAC/elite university…I still think the former was much much harder/overwhelming whereas the latter was quite manageable and sometimes even easier in the academic rigor/level department.

Funny. The bolded part is nearly identical to what an older HS classmate, math tutor, and Cornell alum said about our public magnet AND Cornell based on her experiences with both institutions while going into her last year of undergrad.

338

@Pizzagirl , I wrote about a kid who had to leave home at 11 to pursue HER dream of the Olympics.
You write that YOU wouldn’t send a kid away because YOU wouldn’t value the Olympics enough to do so.
Spot the difference?
Of course the parents of an 11 yo get to say yea or nay. But there are children who have not just the talent, but also the desire, the drive, the NEED at 11. We have no idea how much pushing was involved in the case of these kids, but there are kids who just pull pull pull and the parents are stumbling to keep up.
Would I send my kid away? No. I do not have that kind of kid. He’s approaching the +4sd and gifted boarding school from 7th grade onwards has already been recommended -but I could not imagine my kid wanting to leave his family. For next year (fifth grade) we are compromising letting him ride the bus for on hour to the congregated gifted program at middle school - because HE wants to do it. He’s nine, but he knows. Better time spent on the bus than time spent having meltdowns every morning because school is so stultifying (and that was a rigorous catholic elementary where most kids were working way ahead). Even my husband who teaches at the regular college prep track middle school ten minutes away had to admit that it wasn’t going to be a good fit. He was finally persuaded when I pointed out that so far, almost all play dates and other social experiences had been organized by me. All friendships facilitated by adult involvement. I am SO SO hoping he is going to find a real group of friends In the gifted program. All of my energy so far has gone into getting him out of his head, getting him into music, sports (he’s the least athletic kid you’ve ever seen), getting him wet, dirty, surrounded by other kids. All we did for academics was provide the stationary and the ride to school. I think I occasionally asked him on. Thursdays whether he’d done all the homework for the week. He gets a lot of Bs. Not in maths though. He couldn’t not get an A in maths.
Some kids CANNOT do “normal”. They can learn to pretend, some better than others. But they cannot BE normal, any more that my youngest, who has severe physical disabilities, can be normal.

339

@Marian , I am confident that Aly Reissman will do just fine, even if she stops competing at 22 and has to find a new direction in life. She could go back to school, she could get a coaching licence, but whatever she does, I assume she will approach it with the same determination and spirit she has approached her gymnastics career with, and she will have memories to treasure all her life. (And a few permanent injuries, I am sure. But I didn’t escape law school unscathed, either, even though it’s not that visible from the outside).

340

There’s a story about the kid in the OP in the Washington Post today, and I think it explains why the family chose Cornell. The father got his engineering degree there, a grandfather is on the faculty, and the father’s company has a branch nearby, which makes it possible for the father to keep his job while the family moves to Ithaca. Since it’s going to be the parents who will be negotiating the kid’s life at Cornell, the family’s familiarity with the university will be a big plus.

It’s interesting to read the comments on the Post article. Some of the commenters are criticizing the parents for inflicting the structure of college on this child. That’s not a viewpoint that has come up here.

On another topic, @TIgerle said

I’m sure @Pizzagirl sees the difference, and I do too. But an 11-year-old is not ready to make life-changing decisions such as whether to leave home to spend the rest of her growing-up years training for the Olympics. We’re talking about a 6th grader. You can’t expect 6th graders to understand the long-term consequences of their actions, and therefore most parents only allow them to make choices that have small, harmless long-term impacts. We let them decide whether to take Spanish or French. We let them decide whether or not to go to sleepaway camp. We let them decide whether they’ll continue playing soccer or take tennis lessons instead. We don’t let them make decisions that will impact their entire futures.