<p>Again, this depends on the school. If this is an unweighted GPA based on all honors and AP classes from a very competitive HS I don’t believe there’s a school on the list that is impossible based on stats. For example, our competitive public HS has sent kids with similar stats to most of the reach schools on this list. The bigger concern may not be the stats, but the ECs at this level, though.</p>
<p>I agree that U Pitt and Penn State (ditto to getting the apps in EARLY!) should be likelies. As far as merit aid, check out Lafayette, which is on your list. We know a boy with similar stats who got an unbelievable merit scholarship there.</p>
<p>There is so much wisdom on CC. I am still absorbing all the info. She is from a competitive HS and she has a good load of honors and AP courses. Her senior year will have more AP courses.</p>
<p>She & We ( Mrs & I) do feel that the Pitt & Penn State applications as safeties are a priority. We actually ruled out Case Western because we felt that Penn State will be a better choice than Case. The decision was made on the basis of tuition dollars ( being a PA resident) and the fact that they are not that far apart in the dreaded USNEWS rankings.</p>
<p>We will be going to DC this week - GWU, American & Georgetown. Next we will get started on Phila area ( Haverford, Bryn Mawr & Lehigh) and so forth. Sometimes in August, we will make the mandatory college trip to Boston area ( family vacation). Let us hope the 14 year old is not too bored. Point about all women’s colleges as a safety is well taken. We will definetely bear that in mind.</p>
<p>We have been monitoring the scattergrams constantly. Once they have been updated to include all 2006 graduates, the data will be more meaningful. The scattergrams do not reveal ranks. I will check with them regarding the gray book. Knowing the ranks will definetely complete the picture.</p>
<p>Well, the fact that there are scattergrams is good because it means your GC is likely have a clue, and that they may be able to advocate effectively for your student. BUT - its your D, do your due diligance - GC’s have more experience but you have more focus and incentive.</p>
<p>Your D may be eligible for a merit scholarship at Case, Brandeis or U of R. </p>
<p>Be careful of LAC’s that field a lot of sports teams - if your D is not athletically inclined, that affects chances.</p>
<p>I know you’re trying to trim your list and I hate to add a name, but I was struck by your daughter’s passion for social work. Pitzer College, in Claremont, CA, may be an excellent choice for her. Her stats would put her near the top of the applicant pool there, and Pitzer is known for its focus on community service and its excellent programs.</p>
<p>There is a bonus, but it has a caveat. Pitzer is one of the five Cs … the Claremont Colleges. Three of the other four are among the most highly selective schools in the country (Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd). The fourth, Scripps, is not quite as selective as the others, but is still pretty darned tough to get into (though I think your daughter would awfully good to them). </p>
<p>The Claremont Colleges have, collectively, the resources of a rather large university (the shared library has more books and documents than many flagship state universities). But I think the largest of the schools is around 1500 students, so it still has a LAC feel. Students at the various schools can take classes at all the other schools with few or no restrictions. </p>
<p>Pitzer is by far the easiest to get into in this group, and that makes it a safety school for many. If she feels that Pitzer has the culture she wants and the focus on the helping professions, she should make that very clear in her essays.</p>
<p>Ohio_mom:
Frankly, we were quite discouraged with her GC. GC is in awe of the 4.0 students. GC had “boxed” our D by defining her. Actually, we are dreading the though of meeting the GC after summer. We know the GC’s letter of recommendations means a lot and the GC wants her to aim lower. We hope that will reflect in the language used for the recommendations.</p>
<p>Tarhunt:
Thanks for your suggestions. I will do the prelimnary research on the schools mentioned by you. Our D is away on a summer program.</p>
<p>P.S. I have seen all kinds of application stats out there. How many schools is an average CC applying to?</p>
<p>GC doesn’t want to have 'rents yelling at her when precious scions get their wl’s and rejections. From her frame of reference, makes sense. Now - to get by it. You have to establish that you understand that you do not expect all fat envelopes … and that you would almost be disappointed with all acceptances as it meant she aimed low. You are counting on her knowledge and expertise to make the best of your D’s strengths (keep a straight face). </p>
<p>In the interests of maintaining the GC’s good graces, you may to let her knock a school off the list. IMO JHU and Cornell are not likely. If she really wants these, add H and Y and let them be removed. </p>
<p>I think there is a poll on # of schools in the College Admissions forum.</p>
<p>It is an unfortunate thing, but there is something called “the winner take all high school.” I do not know if yours is one, but I would like to call it to your attention just in case.</p>
<p>In these high schools, a number of kids go to very selective colleges. The GCs maintain this record by playing the game with the admissions officers. The game includes (at least sometimes) being reluctant to recommend some students strongly to very selective schools in order to maintain credibility with those schools. On occasion, a GC at a winner-take-all high school will recommend someone outside the norm, but that student is usually a superstar of some sort who falls outside the academic norm.</p>
<p>GCs at these schools don’t come right out and say all this to colleges. Instead, they write what are called “standard strong” letters of recommendation. The letters are good, but basically reiterate a student’s strengths that can be found on other parts of the application. What the admissions officers are looking for are key phrases such as: “Best ever,” “One of best ever,” “best this year,” “one of best this year.” </p>
<p>It sounds as though your GCs are very savvy, indeed, if they have scatter charts. The charts should give you a very good idea of your odds of admission to various schools. The thing about going to a competitive high school is that, if you finish near the top, it is a great boost. But if you don’t finish at or near the top, you are competing with all the students from your high school who did. That’s generally not a good thing.</p>
<p>I was very, very impressed with the Claremont Colleges. Most people I know who have visited there feel the same way. I hope you get a chance to fly to the LA area and check them out.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, I found your explanation of “winner take all” interesting. But let’s say that a student is in this situation. What, if anything, can the student do to mitigate the effect?</p>
<p>If your daughter has already identified an area (e.g. working with disabled/disadvantaged children) that she’s passionate about, I’d do some more exploring with her based on that. Is it something she wants to do on the side? Or is it something that she thinks she’d like to pursue as a career? If she’s interested in following that as a career path, then I’d search for different occupations that would fit her interest. Physical therapy, occupational therapy, educational psychology and special education all come to mind, and I’m sure there are others. I would avoid like the plague early childhood education–the pay is horrible, and you don’t work with the outliers–those kids are referred to specialists. </p>
<p>THEN I’d build a list of schools that have programs relevant to your daughter’s interests. I suspect you’ll find that the regional universities and the state schools have more to offer a student who has already identified a field of interest than a liberal arts school.</p>
<p>One thing you can almost plan on: almost all the occupations I listed above require a master’s degree, so I’d just bake that into my estimate for college expenses for her (5 or 6 years of school). Also starting salaries in helping professions are not terribly high, and demand exceeds supply in some areas like special ed, so if you can find a state school that meets her needs in terms of fit then I’d go for that rather than an expensive LAC.</p>
<p>We did our first college visits at the American & GWU. Both told us that the GC’s recommendation is more imprtant than the teacher’s. I do not know if they use certain “code words” to go beyond the standard language recommendation letter. Frankly, we were quite disappointed to hear that. The GC has united the whole family, if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>I’m afraid that nothing much can be done at winner-take-all high schools. So many, many parents are of the opinion that sending their children to very competitive high schools will improve their odds of getting into the most selective colleges. This is true if a kid finishes at or near the top of the class. Unfortunately, it also means that very talented kids, who might have been valedictorians at less competitive high schools, are often put at a severe disadvantage.</p>
<p>Here is a link with a rather good study describing this effect:</p>
<p>The issue is where one’s child fits in the admissions game for the high school. If the child doesn’t fit well, asking the GC to go to bat is akin to asking an airline to hold a plane at the gate until you arrive. About all you can do is work with sympathetic teachers to try to improve an admissions officer’s overall impression of the kid.</p>
<p>ohio_mom:</p>
<p>Whether the GC or teacher recs are more highly valued depends on the situation. Many highly selective schools are very impressed when a GC from a high-performing high school with a large number of students gushes over an applicant. For that applicant to stand out at said high school (the reasoning goes), he/she must be quite outstanding in a number of ways.</p>
<p>There is also the very human fact that GCs at high-performing high schools have a relationship with admissions officers at various schools. Sometimes, that relationship goes back many years, involves talks about students who didn’t make it, those who did, those who should have been admitted and weren’t, etc. Naturally, a strong recommendation or a weak recommendation from someone with whom one has that kind of relationship carries more weight than a recommendation from some unknown teacher.</p>
<p>mcvik -
"We did our first college visits at the American & GWU. Both told us that the GC’s recommendation is more imprtant than the teacher’s. "</p>
<p>Sample size of 2, mcvik, don’t give up. I have heard differently from other programs (Bowdoin and Colby if I remember correctly). Remember that the main thing is for the GC rec not to sink her, which is why I am recommending sucking up. The mark of a top school isn’t that the val’s get in fancy places - its that the other top students are also admitted to top schools. </p>
<p>From my son’s results (wl’s at Bowdoin and Carleton), I believe that things get pretty dicey at around 30% admissions if you are outside of the top 10% - even with great everything else. </p>
<p>“The GC has united the whole family, if you know what I mean.”</p>
<p>LOL, sure do. My son’s GC was very nice, but his hs was simply not familiar with elite admissions. The head of the department held a meeting with sections of students - and said that as far as applications were concerned, there may as well be a barbed wire fence around Ohio.</p>
<p>“Naturally, a strong recommendation or a weak recommendation from someone with whom one has that kind of relationship carries more weight than a recommendation from some unknown teacher.”</p>
<p>I agree - and the more competitive the hs <em>and</em> college, the more likely this is to be true. However, I also believe this is a bump in the road - not a complete roadblock.</p>
<p>I agree on the bump in the road, and I also agree with you that, as you move towards more and more selective colleges, class rank below the top 10% begins to hurt more and more. This is especially true of LACs, because many of them receive class rank from 50% or fewer of their applicants, and their entering classes are small. The US News rankings add one to the denominator and none to the numerator for an accepted student outside the top 10% (for nationals and national LACs). So a kid in the 89.9th percentile who is admitted to some LACs can LITERALLY reduce the number of kids in the top 10% by a whole percentage point!</p>
<p>mcvik:</p>
<p>One thing I’ve neglected to ask is if your school reports class rank to colleges. Does it?</p>
<p>Yes it does. The new ranking will be available just before September. We expect her to be in top 20%. Last year, there were 43-44 kids tied for 3rd or 4th rank! If anything, the rank situation will tighten further.</p>
<p>Welcome to the forum, Tanmom - start your own thread and we will help! Let us know geographical preference and whether finaid or merit aid is a factor.</p>